The FastDay Forum

Even though I have posted this information in other threads, I have been thinking about starting a specific thread on this topic for some while, as I am interested in comments from everyone. I am getting around to it now that @fancyacuppa also suggested doing this.

This approach to eating is from Amanda Sainsbury-Salis, an Australian medical researcher, who has published two books on the topic. The basic plan is:

1 Eat according to your physical needs
A Eat when and only when you are physically hungry
B Eat what you really feel like eating
C Eat til you feel truly satisfied

When hungry, check:
1 Will this food feel good when I am eating it?
2 Will this food feel good once it is in my stomach?
3 Will this food feel good 1-2 hours after I have eaten it?

2 Keep a Success Diary
On each day record how hungry you are before you eat or drink (excluding water), what you eat or drink, and how satisfied you after.
Do this until you feel 100% happy with what you weight is doing and 100% confident you know why it is doing what it is.

3 Eat a large variety of mainly whole foods, especially vegetables and fruit (mix of cooked and uncooked).

4 Eat breakfast (though Amanda acknowledges that for some people skipping breakfast does work)
It will help put you in a positive frame of mind for the day, and make it easier to eat nutritious food in accordance with your physical needs.

5 Do some form of regular physical activity

This approach to eating seems optimal to me, though I know there are forum members such as @Sallyo and fancyacuppa for whom it did not work, and I would like to know more about that.

I think that this approach can be combined with fasting, though obviously when fasting you won't be eating if hungry!

Your thoughts?

I also posted the following comments In the wobbly tent.

Amanda's approach is simple but it is not necessarily easy.

Learning to accurately read your body's signals about how hungry you are, what you need to eat, and how satisfied you are, may take time. After all, if we were good at this, we probably would not have had a weight issue in the first place!

It can seem so much easier to have a set of rules to follow, which is what most diets are. But most of us do end up breaking these rules and giving up.

However, once you eat according to your body's needs, there is no need to calorie count or restrict the range of foods you eat, and you can use this approach whatever is happening in your life.

Amanda's books can help you identify what your eating issues are and are full of real life examples and strategies to help deal with your eating issues.

People do wonder how you can lose weight this way - we are used to having to suffer in some way in order to lose weight! The theory is that if you weigh more than your "natural" weight (and Amanda's approach does assume that there is such a weight, determined by your genes, and no doubt other factors) then you are eating more than your body needs. By following her approach, you are very likely to eat less, or eat more wholesomely, or eat when your body needs feeding, and this will lead to weight loss. She explains this in much more detail in the books of course.

It is approach I try to use on feed days. I need tight control of what I eat due to my history of binges. I always eat clean food, much of which I make myself and am vegetarian so my diet is pretty good. I like my cake and biscuits so have to limit those. Nowadays I mostly only eat when hungry and a binge is several handfuls of raisins throughout the day.! I have long believed that losing weight is a complicated thing totally in my head. Hubby says I have a dieting switch that gets turned off sometimes. I have to make a concious effort not to over eat on feed days and do not always succeed. I do not write it down as I am trying to keep things simple.
I guess we have to learn to be honest about whether we are hungry to start but also when to stop. The chocolate bar or cake mid afternoon is not because I am hungry, I just want it!

Thank you @Sassy1. I am a huge fan of Amanda SS and I wouldn't say it didn't work for me. I learned lots of really useful things from following that method of eating: noticing when I am hungry; stopping when i am full, sometimes before the plate is empty; noticing what I really want to eat; no forbidden foods; lots of variety; understanding the importance of regular exercise. I kept a 'success diary' for at least 6 months. I lost weight. I did put on some but not all of the weight I lost. I think I use 5:2 in conjunction with DGH and I like the strictness of fast days and then the relaxed non-fast days when I can have cake and wine and so on. I can have those things on the DGH diet too, but not so much because I haven't got the fast days in there to boost my weight loss. When I first started on 5:2 I was a bit worried that I was betraying the DGH ethos which I had espoused so religiously so I was very happy when Amanda gave 5:2 her tick of approval. I love her books and would encourage anyone who wants to lose weight to read them. She really explains lots of things about dieting, weight loss, why diets stop working and all that.

I can see that this is the ideal way to eat, but as a discipline it is not for me.

I prefer the rigid rules of time restricted eating which I can follow, because it means less thinking about food. Actually it is part of the Fast-5 protocol to eat according to hunger, and I do not follow that part of it perfectly, because I sometimes eat when I am adequately full, but in the long run I get away with it and I am not interested in ruminating on the whys and wherefores.

As for thinking whether a food will nourish or harm me, I have embraced lower carb as a health principle (for me), so I do not ask myself whenever I see some bread or cake, for me the issue is pre-decided, and my over-eating is of things like nuts or cheese.

These approaches mean I spend less time thinking about food than I otherwise would!

Dare I say what I think? I think I would die if I followed this diet. Why? Because when I started 5:2 three years ago, the side effect has been that I NEVER FEEL HUNGRY. Not even when I am fasting seriously for a long time. I just feel deprived psychologically.
Otherwise, I must say I agree with what Barbarita said above, about not fussing about food and eating low carb. No way could I ask myself what I would LIKE to eat.... Having said this. I must say that after low carbing for a long time, I find most desserts far too sweet. I enjoy low carb foods now... So I think I am OK. The fasting gives me the tools to 'feast' and 'fast' when appropriate!
I appreciate that there are many people who like the DGH diet, and I think that is really great for them.

I downloaded the book after reading your comments about it. All sensible stuff, and I found myself nodding along, until I got to her instructions to eat breakfast even if you aren't hungry. I know she feels that breakfast prevents you from making poor food choices later in the day, but to be honest I stopped reading at that point.
I eat from when I feel hungry till after my evening meal, usually an 8 hour window, but have found that without the discipline of 5:2 I can't create enough of a deficit to lose weight. Also as many others have commented, being able to have treats on non-fasting days makes the whole thing doable.

Which book should I get if I just get one? I probably prefer the one with the most science

[Debs]

I think this just proves that we are all very individual in our approaches from completely time rigid to more flexible, and that is great! I got a lot out of the book, I have her original one and tbh, having read @Sassy1 summary, you can probably save the money!! I just ignored the brekkie section as I am quite happy without it these days and usually survive quite well.
I have definitely found that low carb is better for me physically, but again, it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I have to balance eating what I really want with being practical and sensible, for instance as much as I could murder a cheese roll, I know that the consequence will be heartburn. Do I want that? So I just see her approach ad another part of my arsenal!

While I haven't been able to get the book from the library (they just said, it's an Australian book and we won't be buying it, and I'm unwilling to purchase another diet book), I read and followed Diet's Don't Work MANY years ago, which has a similar approach...And it worked--for awhile. But not permanently, or I wouldn't be here. For me, I guess it's the very "mindlessness" of 5:2 that appeals to and works for me... I just do two days a week of 500 cals, I have an established pattern, and if I'm tempted, I can "have it tomorrow"! This approach, while very sensible and logical, just requires too much ongoing effort for me. And I have been doing some of what it recommends for years, noticing how foods affect me/my body (do I want to eat pancakes for brunch, when I know they'll make me feel icky later?) and deciding how I want to FEEL...and sometimes, yes, I want that naughty item enough to "pay the price."

I've recently read part of Freedhoff's The Diet Fix; one thing he says that resonates with me is that people eat for all sorts of reasons other than "hunger," and that's not always a bad thing! He acknowledges that some "hunger" is all in your head, and fighting that is contrary to human nature. Also, he says that the "stomach hunger" usually acknowledged as "real hunger" is variable; some people never feel it at all.

Thnaks for setting this up @Sassy1 - I'm in a bit of a rush just now but I will be definitely be back here soon to discuss my few months experimenting with DGH!

Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond.

I totally understand that the DGH way of eating does not suit everyone, and that many have found other ways of eating that they are happy with - which work and are sustainable.

What I guess I mean by "optimal" is that if we had to pick one way of eating to teach children, then the DGH philosophy seems like a good one.

@MaryAnn, I think the first book has more science, and the second has more practical examples. @Sallyo, what do you think?

@Bobshouse, lovely to hear from you again! You are sounding well. I know what you mean about the mid afternoon sweet food - for me, that happens in the evenings... But if I do really make myself think about whether I am hungry and what I really fancy, then many times I can make other choices. And I can understand not wanting(?) to make a record of what you are eating, but for those who aren't really aware of what and when they are eating, it can be a useful tool to make a record for a while.

Thanks Sallyo for all that extra info, and apologies for misinterpreting your earlier comments. I totally agree that there is something appealing about the strictness of fast days and I have "enjoyed" the few I have done recently while trying to lose that holiday excess. But as I have mentioned elsewhere, I would prefer not to have fast days when maintaining, as this would mean I am overeating on other days. I also get weary of fast days - though one solution is to take regular breaks from that form of fasting. A regular (but not daily) reasonably lengthy fasting period, followed by normal eating, is my preference for still having fasting as a way of life when maintaining.

@Barbarita, I absolutely acknowledge that for some having rigid rules works very well. You are a great example of this! You are fortunate that you don't think about food much outside your eating window. I am not sure this would be the case for everyone!! Ideally with DGH you would only think about food as you become hungry - apart from meal planning which I assume you do too.

Wow, @Margotsylvia, never feeling hungry since starting fasting! Certainly fasting has meant that I can go for longer periods without feeling hungry, and has taught me how to cope with hunger (most of the time) and how not to make eating the first priority for the day(!!). But if I don't eat, eventually I do get hungry.

@SianS, I do understand how the bit about having breakfast is off putting, as I know many forum members have found that skipping breakfast is a great strategy and they don't miss it at all. I contacted Amanda about this, which is why I added the comment that I did in my post above. However, for people who aren't using fasting as a strategy and therefore haven't learnt how to eat appropriately once a fast is over, then breakfast may be a good thing. And I do think breakfast is important for children, so as parents (and grandparents) maybe we should be modeling this behavior??

Thanks for your input @Debs. The problem I have with the use of the term "low carb" is what exactly is meant by it - I think different diets use the term in different ways. I totally get that added sugar is not good for many people, but unless there are good reasons (allergies etc) I don't like the idea of having to restrict whole grains, and some fruit and veggies, which I believe do contain important nutrients, as well as adding variety.

I do agree @ferretgal that at times it is okay to eat for reasons other than hunger - eg to be sociable, or because the food is really nice. But I believe that most people's eating problems are not due to such reasons. Interesting the opinion that some people don't ever experience "stomach" hunger - presumably they still can tell when they have eaten enough?

5:2 worked excellently for me for losing weight, but it did not help me deal with my eating issues. I have had better success resisting emotional eating with the DGH approach, as I have been able to make myself think "am I hungry and do I really want this", and I have been more motivated to find other activities to do rather than eat. Not always though!

Fascinating thread and much appreciated. Reading through I'm struck by the variety of methods we need to employ to gain the common goal of permanent weight loss. There appears to be no 'magic bullet', and each individual must constantly tweak their way of eating and exercising to retain their own metabolic balance.
Age and hormone changes add another layer of imbalance to be wrestled back to body harmony, something that has, so far, taken 13 years of my life and is still ongoing, and not fully successful.
I hope scientists soon become interested enough in women aged 45 and upwards to properly explore menopause and it's strangulation of many women's lives and find some way of mitigating the weight gain and brain fog it produces.
We are, after all, just a bag of chemicals

Yes, lots of good comments here. I also become 'weary of fast days' and I think all of us who have been here for some time experience that and are working out ways to deal with it. As for eating outside of hunger, Amanda has the concept of having 'a party in your mouth' which is about eating foods when you are not hungry and you are eating for fun. It's ok to do that, acceding to her theory of weight loss, but you don't party every day. That is something i learned from her. There is the 'weight loss phase' and then there is when you are not trying to lose weight, the 'weight loss holiday'. If you want to lose weight, it's better not to have 'parties in your mouth' too much. If you do, you will not lose weight. I remember asking her if I could count the fruit in cake as 'fruit' in my daily allocation - not if you want to lose weight, was her reply. I like the way she encourages me to celebrate food and enjoy food, not deprive myself. I think her ideas are especially useful for people who have done serial diets, are always on a diet. etc. It really cuts through on the failure of traditional diets to help us lose weight. As you say, Sassy1, we need to find a way to eat and this might be it. For me 5:2 has become not so much a way to lose weight now, I think I've given up on that idea now that I'm just in the over weight category, but now it's about the promised health benefits in old age. I think fasting might be healthy, losing weight aside. That's why I want to keep doing it, even if I ever got to that magical, unreachable healthy BMI. I also love the way she doesn't encourage denial of whole food groups. Just keep it simple, is her message. The closer to nature, the better. And go for variety.

First off I have to say I really like the philosophy of DGH, with the emphasis of listening to your body. I got into it because after 6-month spell of 5:2 I experienced a period of completely insatiable hunger, which quite closely matched the DGH book description of the famine reaction. Initially I was trying it as maintenance, with a hope that I could progress to weight loss with it. (Spoiler: weight went up fairly consistently after the first 3 weeks or so)

Disclaimer: I have only read 'Don't Go Hungry For Life'

First, what I found good:
* Doing the two week Success Diary was really interesting and told me a lot about my eating patterns. Generally I start eating before I am properly physically hungry. On the plus side I am good at stopping eating before I am overstuffed.
* I upped my intake of fruit and veg to 2 fruit and 5 veg a day, something I stick to now on all non-fasting days (no fruit on fasting days for me!)
* Before I put food in my mouth, I always mentally ask myself questions to the effect of 'Is it nutritious?' and 'Will it satisfy my hunger?'. I'm sure I am eating more whole foods and less rubbish as a result.
* I am trying to address my aversion to exercise!

A minor issue:
* As others have mentioned, breakfast was a bit of an issue, as I had done enough 5:2 and eating windows to have cut breakfast out in favour of having coffee and a snack at about 11 AM.

The killer:
In my life as it currently is, I don't have enough control over deciding my own mealtimes. Breakfast (or lack thereof) is up to me, but lunch and dinner caused me problems with trying to follow the DGH principles.
I work in a building where we are not allowed to eat in our offices, so my team goes to the canteen as a group. I take packed lunch so I am on control of what I eat, but the decision on when to break for lunch is a majority decision, and I often find I am either ravenous (if I breakfast soon after getting up as suggested in DGH) or not really hungry (if I have gone for an eating window and only started eating after 11 or so in the morning)
At dinner time, me and OH eat together and he is always ravenous from the moment he gets home! Synchronising dinner so we are both at the right hunger level is really hard and obviously I wouldn't want us to end up eating separately, as that is when we talk about how the day has been.
It did seem to me that the DGH method is written as though everybody lives solo, and did't seem to really deal with fitting round family mealtimes/social eating patterns? Is that in different book? Thoughts welcome!