The FastDay Forum

I'm not a low carber but am getting increasingly interested in the subject. Since starting the 5:2 journey my perceived knowledge and understanding of many facets of diet has changed. One year ago I would have said that you can't do endurance exercise on low carb. Since then I've learnt thru my own fasting experiences and reading other low carb practising athlete accounts that you can. Up until reading the following link, and spurred on by DomDom's post in the Peter Attia lecture thread re him knowing successful low carb athletes, I didn't think you could effectively compete as a low carb athlete. Now it looks as though I may have another misconception to add to my ever growing list.

Couple of points: It would be interesting to know exactly what Olson's diet is and what kind of feeding during the race he was doing. The definition of a low carb diet I guess is hazy. I imagine too that he took some form of carbs during the race, again at what point do you say his race feeding is not low carb? We also have to assume that he's not taking any performance enhancing drugs.

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/ ... lek-study/

That's really interesting.

I like running, but I still find it a struggle to run on fast days. I guess I'm just not efficient at burning fat yet, because, believe me, there's still plenty there to burn!

Exercise on fast days is ok for me, it's the day after that I sometimes find hard. I fasted (only water and table salt) yesterday and pushed myself on a 2 hr bike ride (av HR was 86% of my max HR), so I guess my liver and leg muscle glycogen stores got well depleted. Am off to the pool in 30mins or so and am a little concerned it's going to be a bit painful, but fingers crossed that the arm muscle glycogen stores are still good..

I hope you're still managing to run. Some days the heat and humidity up here make life on the bike a bit grim. Am not looking forward to the end of rainy season.

I bought some lights that go on your hands so its easier to run at night. The humidity is insane in Okinawa, but I think it's actually hotter on the mainland. I've been using the treadmill ( which has a fan!) some for shorter faster runs.

Hi Skippy, I'm not sure that you have a misconception at all - I have read Peter Attia's explanations of how far ketones can take him (starts to burn glycogen at a pulse rate around 144 if I remember right) and followed Anthony Colpo's vitriolic blog which dismisses all claims that keto athletes can win speed events. I finally got to Tim Olsons's own site where he explains he eats few carbs except during races, which makes sense as the carbs act as 'peak shaving' supplements with fat being the main source.
I guess this must have been the state I got into during my ultra career - but without the competitive successes! - because I could manage 24 hours but not keep eating enough to stay quick. Most of us had the same problem, food became intolerable and performance just dwindled steadily. Walking-pace events were generally OK because fat burning was sufficiently effective but running required carbs, and carbs became more and more unattractive to me with distance & time.
Now I know more I shall experiment on long bike rides to see what can still be done at my age on a high fat diet (hips preclude running nowadays)...

Pete, again I have to bow to your sporting prowess, ultra distance running as well as big wall climbing. I too had a look at Olson's website and was a little dismayed that he does use gels on these events, took a bit of my initial astonishment away but as you say it's probably just not possible to effectively compete at such an intensity for such a long period of time without some supplementary carbs.

Going back to your 24hr ultra long distance events, what exactly was your race feeding regime?

Was also interested in your remark that "food became intolerable." I remember from some of my long days alpine climbing getting back to the hut or the valley base feeling v tired, thirsty and hungry and either making or ordering food that I just couldn't eat because my body just wouldn't take it. Strangely downing beer was never an issue. I wonder what the physiological,evolutionary reason for that inability to eat food is. It doesn't make sense to me. Glycogen stores must have been well depleted.

Skippy: There was only one true 24hr event in my undistinguished career, the Bob Graham round of the Lake District, and that took 2 attempts. Got round with about 20 minutes to spare but was dead on my feet on the back of Skiddaw. Had to stop until I felt I could force some chocolate down then very slow to the summit - but still managed to jog the downhills into Keswick! This was in 1990...
Previous attempt the year before was on a really hot day and clockwise, we all bonked by Scafell but I felt particularly bad because I had taken thick cheese sandwiches as fuel & no way could I manage to face them after a few hours. This was also the week after we had done the first sub-24hr round of all the Cuillins in Skye (reds, marsco,blaven, standard ridge in 22:15 from/to Sligachan door) so perhaps I had not recovered sufficiently!
Eating for 30 - 40 mile events was helped by Maxim maltodextrin powder which could be drunk in tea/coffee/water etc and I used to carry a bag of sweets including liquorice torpedoes, chocolate limes, other weird flavors that just might appeal on the day plus Tracker bars.
The longed run I ever attempted was a 12hr charity event around flat school fields on a warm day August 1989, where I ran the first 30 miles straight off in 4 1/2hrs then rested in the shade for 30 mins as my target speed was 6mph - big mistake because although I could eat & drink I stiffened up much more than I expected and slowed considerably for the last few hours. Only managed 62 miles/100km, had hoped for over 70. Always wanted to try a proper 100 mile event but LDW events always filled up too quickly and the West Highland Way seemed a bit too serious. Too late now, I'm afraid...
Anyway, the gist of this ramble is to say I always struggled with feeding during events and if we had known then what we now know I suspect many of us could have performed much better with a fattier diet and lower carbs.

Oh, in the eighties I was also a glider pilot & instructor - only flew one competition and performed badly but enjoyed flying cross-country, including one 500km flight over 7 hours. Met my wife-to-be at the club and flew together occasionally but have not flown for years, since the kids came along...

I always struggled with feeding during events and if we had known then what we now know I suspect many of us could have performed much better with a fattier diet and lower carbs.

It'll certainly be interesting to see if this is indeed the case in the coming years. If anyone else knows of low carb athletes with success stories, I'd love to hear more.

Pete - Again am v impressed with your mtn runs. I read the "Feet in the clouds"(?) book a few yrs ago about a journo and his attempt at the BG round a few yrs ago. Was v impressed by the book and the associated stories. I think it is one of the classic UK endurance challenges but v few people know about it. Full marks for your Skye circuit too, I assume a man of your abilities soloed the TD gap? I still haven't done either of the cuillin ridges in their entirities, have only cherry picked interesting peaks and scrambles. I actually started 5:2ing as soon as I got back from a trip to the cuillins late last august. Thanks for the bringing back memories of maxim glucose polymer powder. I used to use it too when it was first introduced when I was a student, if i remeber rightly it was tenner for a 2kg tub.
You certainly have an impressive list of sporting accomplishments.

Answering my own question from above re difficulty eating after/during big physical exertion, I was thumbing thru Mike Stroud's Survival of the Fittest book this morning and he puts it down to reduced blood flow to the gut. I recommend the book if you haven't read it. My copy is from 1999, would be interested to see what/if any changes he has made to the Survival of the Fattest chapter in the latest edition. Stroud being an exercising Dr with an interest in nutrition, exercise etc I'd like to know his views on much of what gets discussed on this forum.

Hi Skippy. The reduced blood flow to the gut was how I understood the inability to keep eating happened, in those days we just accepted that some coped better than others (my BG round partner could still trough Mars bars when I thought I would never eat again, he finished an hour before me).
Regarding Skye, did you see the ridge record was broken a couple of times last month - now just under 3h 15m! There is a report on UKClimbing.com, where I also have a few photos under the username petemeads, if you are interested...
Yes, I could solo into and out of the TD gap in practice, and down climb the Inn Pinn, but on the successful attempt we carried a short 9mm rope because my mate couldn't - and I never wanted to attempt the Bhasteir Tooth without gear, it frightens the crap out of me!

Cheers, Pete

Have you read "Eat & Run" by Scott Jurek?

He's a vegan ultra runner and it's a good read.

I'd have to go back to read it to see where carbs come in...

The following link from Mark's Daily Apple also makes reference to Olson and also cyclist David Zabriskie (ex US Postal cycling team member....):
http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitne ... s-20130618

The following link from Olson's website also goes into some detail on what he actually eats:
http://timothyallenolson.wordpress.com/ ... nutrition/

Pete - I did indeed see the cuillin record breaking traverse news on ukc (also where I got the original info for this thread). Not been on the Bhasteir tooth yet. Was on my to do list last year after doing pinnacle ridge on gillean but ended up just descending off gillean down the tourist route, was on my own and had had enough excitement for one day!