The FastDay Forum

@O'Dell -
Have you ever watched Biggest Loser and seen weeks where the trainers beat the calories out of those people who are subsisting on little more than asparagus for hours and hours. Some weeks you will see a person lose nothing or even gain after all that. If calories in/calories out were true; that couldn't possibly happen. . . So, how can a no loss week happen if calories in/calories out is true???

As you say, it is not that simple. What you are not accounting for is the impact of water retention. As has been posted many, many times, when you exercise, broken down muscles retain water. It is very easy to burn more calories than you take in and gain weight - water weight.

Even people who are totally fasting - ie no calories in at all - hit periods where they do not lose weight. The time frames are not long, but they are there.

Over time, however, it is calories in, calories out. If you eat fewer calories than your actual, honest TDEE, you have to lose weight. If you don't over the shorter term it may be because you are retaining water. If you don't over the longer term, it is because you are eating too many calories.

@DomDom I completely agree with almost every thing you mention. But, what happens when you are doing low carb, healthy carbs, tons of exercise and even watching calories; but the weight is still not coming off?

I am trying to identify the problem and address it. You cannot correct the issue without doing that. When I mention my medical conditions or metabolic concerns it is because I am trying to get to the root of the problem and be dilligent about eliminating it. I am actively educating myself, exercising, tweaking and trying to overcome it. Not sitting on my @$$ making excuses.

@simcoeluv I think that water weight can account for some of the problem for some of the people some of the time. But, to you I say it is not that simple, either.

I occasionally have water retention and bloating; but I have learned techniques to handle that. It is the more complicated issues of a barely functioning thyroid, insulin resistance and a sluggish digestive system that are more problematic for me personally. Oh, wait...and the wonky hormones from PCOS and approaching menopause/middle age.

I humbly suggest that if you are not losing weight, or if you don't think you are losing weight fast enough, that you eat fewer calories and see if that helps.

Wow. REALLY? Just wow. You think in 18 months on plan and countless tweaks and hacks that that idea never occurred to me?? Been there, done that. Didn't work. I tried eating less calories on fast days, less calories on feed days, less calories for the week as a whole. As an aside I also tried increasing calories, decreasing carbs, increasing and decreasing fat intake, increasing and decreasing exercise, and a few crazier ideas along the way. I have managed to lose approximately 20% of my starting body weight. There has been some improvement in some areas. But, the pace remains quite snail like no matter what I try.

I saw the program on Thursday night. Very good.

I was disappointed that the issue of feast/famine wasn't addressed. They were talking about how our diets had changed over the past 20 years, the low fat phase, manufactured to make a market in low-fat products and now the sugar phase. But another big change in eating over the last 20 years is the invention of the 'snack'. We are eating all the time. It used to be believed that one shouldn't eat between meals.

I was interested in the statements about exercise. I myself have never lost weight through exercise. I believe exercise is really good for helping me sleep and helping me feel more energetic. But as for losing weight, no. It does make me hungry and then I eat more. If I don't eat more, I feel deprived and then you get the punishment/reward pattern happening.

Losing weight in steps was mentioned and this is certainly my experience. It is the body's natural reaction to losing weight. You have to establish a new set point. This explains the plateau. Your body says: 'Hang on, there's something wrong; I'm losing weight' and you have to stay at that weight for enough time for your body to relax and recognize the new weight as normal. Then you can start losing weight again.

Amanda Sainsbury-Salis has written a book and has a web page, The Don't Go Hungry Diet, where she has the science of this. She also discusses deprivation and what happens when you make some foods forbidden.

http://www.dramandaonline.com/E-Shop/Th ... yDiet.aspx

That's why 52 works so well for me. I don't have to forbid any foods. Even sugar.

oh my. I don't know about this forum lately.

@DomDom I completely agree with almost every thing you mention. But, what happens when you are doing low carb, healthy carbs, tons of exercise and even watching calories; but the weight is still not coming off?

I am trying to identify the problem and address it. You cannot correct the issue without doing that. When I mention my medical conditions or metabolic concerns it is because I am trying to get to the root of the problem and be dilligent about eliminating it. I am actively educating myself, exercising, tweaking and trying to overcome it. Not sitting on my @$$ making excuses.

43tweaker: I was not referring to people with medical conditions and metabolic syndrome who try to identify the problems and find solutions to them when I talked about making excuses. That seems to be the opposite to making excuses.

If you haven't already, I would recommend reviewing eatingacademy.com. It deals with metabolic syndrome among other things.

Simcoe and others about calories in/out: I am not contesting that calories matter, but ones metabolism differs based on what you eat. If you can eat whatever you want, maintain healthy weight and be healthy in all other ways, fantastic. What I think you are missing is that the metabolism changes based on what you eat. We are not talking about 2-3% here. The case could be that a person can gain weight eating 2000 calories and lose weight eating 3000 calories, exercise etc being the same. Once again, the problem in just about every case is the consumption of carbohydrates, which causes the body to secrete insulin which is the most important hormone to store fat.

The assumptions that the body handles all fuels the same way and that your metabolism staying the same way regardless what you eat are simply incorrect. Your body is an engine and it is performs differently on different kinds of fuels. If the type of food you eat did not matter we could eat wood or diesel oil and expect the body to do well as long as we keep it around our honest TDEE.

The more I read on this forum, the more I'm convinced there really is no one single 'correct' approach to weight loss. We've all got our own theories (sometimes quite deeply entrenched!) about what works, based on past experience, medical conditions and personal likes and dislikes. The great thing for me is discovering new ideas here and experimenting with them, then accepting or discarding them based on my own experience.

Going back to the exercise debate, I followed the Huffington Post link and it led me to this Observer article -

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... lic-health

As far as I can see, the debate is about short periods of structured exercise, like visits to the gym, rather than NEAT. Dr M's programme about exercise already dealt with that particular myth, didn't it?

All I know is exercise a) makes me less hungry, not more, and b) helps me lose weight when added to some form of calorie control.

I'm the same way, shachat. On the odd occasion when exercise increases my appetite I'm just mindful about what I eat. The more important point about exercise is that it's important to do to be healthy.

As a former sloth who owes weight gain to menopause, dicky digestive system, sedentary job and liking good healthy food in large portion sizes, I now still surprise myself still with exercise at the gym 3 times a week doing cardio, weights and stretches. Nothing outrageous oh and walking the dog a few days a week. So I am with you Mary Ann and shachat exercise is just sooooo good for you. It feels great and when I don't I feel bleuck.

Also I am being very proactive about making the best effort about this WOL for pressing health benefits but weight loss lead me here. My heart goes out to you 43tweaker if you are finding it a struggle. Hang in there

With the comments of DomDom in mind about what you eat, is there value in us thinking about what is actually consumed on our fast days. I.e as protein or carbs or fat etc

Is the concept of just a number (500/600 or 25% of TDEE) good enough and thus should we devise a guide with a breakdown of types of food we consume on fast days for max benefit

@DomDom: Possibly our ideas of calories are different. My idea of calories is a measurement of energy. Specifically "The energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water through 1 °C (now usually defined as 4.1868 joules)." We eat food to provide energy and nutrients. I see it as "energy in/energy out". Take in more energy and it has to be used up or stored like in a battery or exit the body in some way.

I do feel for the people that for medical reasons can't use up the energy in the amount of food they need for specific nutrients. But the rest of us that just eat more than we need...yes I include myself in that...it is as simple as calories in/out or energy in/out.