The FastDay Forum

Welcome Mas. If you want to work out and stay in ketosis, try bulletproof coffee before you train. You get the energy from fat. Few of us addicted to it. You don't need the special beans. Lots of threads on bulletproof coffee here.

Still trundling through... Still struggling to get my calories up on a weekday eat day
I know it's really not the right way, but i am getting ~2.2k+ cals on a weekend (full english breakfast, indian/chinese buffet etc...) - perhaps even deliberately indulging...
Weekdays, fast days are 400-600, feed days are ~1000 (plus whey protein/creatine 2x a week)

Working out 5 times per week- it doesn't feel a chore at all!

Last weeks weigh in was 1.5kg loss - pretty disappointing!! Luckily im not one to binge eat at the scale results, it won't deter me, im just using it as a guide of various food/exercise routines

This weeks weigh-in was a 3.4kg loss - that's more like it! With 30-35kg still to go theres a long way yet - summer 2012 i was 25kg heavier than i am now, the next 25kg needs to be gone much faster than that!

Incidentally i bought michaels fast exercise book (didnt realise it predated his fast diet book and show) i do HIIT anyway but my approach was different
I alternated speed/intensity for sprints and recovery, HR at 130/155 when running

With the book method its more like 120/140 (shorter harder sprints, longer recovery).. On a bike (his method) i struggle to get heart rate over 130 on hard sprints (50sec versus his 30s)....
He says the sprint pace should be 90% max HR, but i cant get anywhere near that.
During a P/T session, or boxing/vipr circuits , HR max was about 174 - so nowhere near 90% max HR that i should be at.

On the bike, resistance is 12-13, rpm on sprints is 125-130, recovery is ~90 rpm... So do I just need to man up and step it up, or what? 13 resistance is quite tough... I really feel it in my knees

hmm, so somewhere along the road I went wrong.
I started doing 4-3 (when I was posting here) - including 2 consecutive days of lowcal (<600)
For a month - it wasn't even difficult! I guess I was displeased with the progress (5kg in ~4 weeks), didn't seem fair reward for my 4-3 and working out 5 days per week!

Then I saw a friend on facebook making incredible progress with "protein waters" - bought the book, it's still IF, just seems an easier way to go even lower calorie on fast days. Obviously in my head I am thinking " what an easy way to do ADF with the protein waters"

Then, well I don't know what happened! I last visited here in May (last reported weighin). Looking at my endomondo tracked workouts, I carried on hitting the gym until mid June (went on a weeks holiday).

Since mid June I've moved house, been on another 3 week vacation, completely slacked off on the gym, and completely dropped fasting. I still tried to eat well the whole time- bread is all but gone (most wheat/gluten - intolerance), so no pizza! But it was 3 meals a day, every day.

But where I could once upon a time do a 2 day fast mon-tue with ease, I lost the ability to walk past the chip shop on the way home from work if i was hungry and smelled it. Sometimes twice in a week! And I hated myself every time I stuffed my face!

For the entire time of my slackness I did not weigh myself. No thanks! I know what those scales are going to show...

So given this post, you can already guess I have started to re-find my way. Started with a fast today (well, skipped breakfast, forgot that I was supposed to skip lunch too!! [veg soup,2 boiled eggs, a ton of beetroot, some cucumber, and a tiny scoop of potato/mayo (russian salad)]
Went to the gym - first time since about 16th of June - and also weighed myself. I need to track for progress, but also to see what damage I did over Summer. 2.5KG *LOSS* since my last weighin - UNEXPECTED and very YAY!

So this time I aim to simplify. Follow something more by the book (e.g on my 4 feed days, I was only eating ~1200c, and not re-eating any of my 600-1000 burnt cals). And also set realistic incremental goals.

117KG. I want 100KG before the year is out. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve that, but mindful that my preparedness for anything is why I was doing so many different variants last time.

Anyway, I was just so stoked at my 2.5kg loss over summer, whilst I did deviate from the path, and undoubtedly set my progress back a few months, on the other hand it completely reinforces that the other changes I have made in life are sufficient to know the weight is off and staying off. I was honestly more worried about the battle to keep it off (when I eventually reach there). As a natural cynic, hearing and reading others on-going stories did nothing to allay my worry!

yay!

Welcome back Mas. It looks like you have a good plan to keep it simple and just trust that it works but it won't be fast weight loss but that's OK. If you're still cutting out bread etc like I am pop over to the fastonbury glamping grounds sub forum and you'll find the low carbers tent.
Xxx julianna

117KG. I want 100KG before the year is out. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve that, but mindful that my preparedness for anything is why I was doing so many different variants last time.

Hi Mas, good to see you back and see some guys on the forum. Good to have a plan that goes back to basics and become realistic. Do I see it right that you plan to lose 17kg in 13 weeks? That still seems a bit on the ambitious side? Coming close to 1 kg a week is already pretty much. Sustainability is the answer to long term success, so make sure those non-fast days are filled with a sensible 'normal' amount of calories. 'Whatever it takes' includes also having the willpower to take your time to get (durable) results.
Good luck and keep us posted

Welcome back, @Mas54321 and congratulations for not piling all your weight back on while you were away from us! May I ask why the rush to get to 100kg by the end of the year? This WOL is a way of eating which will be sustainable for the rest of your life - not a quick fix. The habits which you learn now will keep you at your ideal weight forever (as it did through your summer 'break').

If you think about how long it took to gain your excess weight, please don't expect to lose it in a few months - that's just setting yourself up to fail. Men, generally, achieve faster weight loss than women (to do with greater muscle mass, I understand) but some slowdown is likely to happen, particularly as your muscle mass increases with your return to the gym, and you need to be prepared for it.

Remember that slow and steady wins the race! I'm going now - I'm starting to sound like my mother! Onwards and downwards!

Because it's a round number, because I want to push myself, and because I think it's achievable!

I know that this is a long road. 100KG is just the half way point, and I know that as I get closer to my target it is going to get more and more difficult. 15 weeks to lose 17kg.
TDEE is ~2800/day (19600/week)
I need a weekly calorie deficit of 8746.5/week to maintain the 1.13333kg loss.

So a weekly income of 10853.5k/cal
3 fast days at 500k/cal
and 4 days of 2350 (!!!)

I won't eat over 2000cal, so that should offset some of the slowdown (I will re-calculate the calories again in a month), I also discounted my gym work as "spare" calories

So provided the necessary discipline is there... why not?!

[carieoates]

Hello and welcome back.
A fella at last, it's amazing how many people are trickling back having gone to pot over the summer. Get back on your wagon, and good luck from me.

Because it's a round number, because I want to push myself, and because I think it's achievable!

...
So a weekly income of 10853.5k/cal
3 fast days at 500k/cal
and 4 days of 2350 (!!!)

I won't eat over 2000cal, ...

So provided the necessary discipline is there... why not?!

Knowing from history and beliefs-to-predictions are two different things.

Typical 4:3 is a 32% reduction in total weekly calories.
Typical ADF tops out around 38%.

Your 2,350 calories per non-fast day is a 45% reduction (!!) in total weekly calories.
2,000 per non-fast day increases that to a 55% reduction (!!!) in weekly calories.

That being said: 2.5 pounds per week is do-able for a guy. I did about that in 5 months with ADF with only minor concern about calorie intake (watching carbs with no calorie counting) on non-fast days; flat-lining to a BMI under 25. Been happy there for well over a year.

It's been my experience that physical exertions (of all types) with the idea of them causing substantial weight loss, to be a hopeless dream. Not an effective solution. They will however help you retain muscles that'll you can eventually use to considerable advantage once the inertial "ballast" is gone.

For example: My run times now crush a personal best from 6 years ago with three PB's in the last 4 races; even more so if considering age-adjusted comparisons to best finish times from my mid-twenties.

So, rhetorical considerations: If discipline was there before - and is predicted to be there again - how'd you ever get into this situation in the first place? How is this time different? What are your plans to maintain that substantial weight goal if you succeed? (Hint: going back to eating as before is arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.)

If these thoughts provoke, good! Consider accepting them as a motivating shoulder jab from one guy to another.

Good luck and welcome back mas'.

The problem is I don't believe my TDEE is 2800 - because that would mean I had been eating thousands and thousands of extra calories (tens of) to reach this point. I would say that I've been eating at a weekly deficit for more than 2 years now (based on what I eat at each meal), and whilst the trend has been downward for the whole time, it certainly hasn't equalled the level of weight loss for my diet/intake that such an excess should deliver.

Accordingly, I am so worried about consuming too much that it's a struggle to get anywhere near what I should be eating on feed days.

2350 calories just feels gluttonous, and not just that, but without eating junk food I don't know how I could get anywhere near that target.

About the workouts - I agree that weight loss is at least 75% diet. 500calories intake is a sausage roll. To burn those 500 calories off in the gym is probably a 30 minute+ run on the treadmill. Why I am working out though:
setting good habits and working it into normal regular life
.... I do not junk eat after the gym, period. On fast days after a workout I have no interest in ruining my efforts
toning, maintaining/building muscle
+ bigger calorie deficit! every little helps

I am realistic that my 1-2hr gym session is <1k calories, possibly even half that.

What is different this time:
Good question. The reality is, losing weight is the easy part, keeping it off is much tougher. I am all but done with eating bread and pasta - I literally don't crave it, and don't consume it. Fruit juice - maybe it is trivial in the grand scheme, but that is gone too. I see 6:1 as the natural succession for maintenance.

Also things that I have learned in the past year:
3 meals a day is not the norm or right thing. So many times, I ate without being hungry because... it's breakfast, it's lunch, it's dinner time.
High intensity internal training, to get more value from my workouts.

I am also being more "social" about my efforts, talking to people about the gym, even going with coworkers. Just the face saving/guilt of not having to admit I didn't go to the gym seems to spur me on to go.

Here's a question, how does a person eat a 2000 calorie healthy lunch/dinner? I don't want extra carbs and sugar, I eat a lot of beetroot, so I am not carbless, but I don't want to pad meals out with carbs

The problem is I don't believe my TDEE is 2800 - because that would mean I had been eating thousands and thousands of extra calories (tens of) to reach this point.

To me TDEE is an interesting measure in dietary science but far more smoke than fire where practical application is concerned. I eat no-where near my estimated TDEE even if I use the sedentary value. And I don't bother to adjust the value upwards for exercise estimates, viewing the additional calorie burn as a bonus.

Accordingly, I am so worried about consuming too much that it's a struggle to get anywhere near what I should be eating on feed days.

2350 calories just feels gluttonous, and not just that, but without eating junk food I don't know how I could get anywhere near that target.

Agree from experience here too. Any issues of becoming ravenously hungry if you skip a meal or two?

About the workouts - I agree that weight loss is at least 75% diet. 500calories intake is a sausage roll. To burn those 500 calories off in the gym is probably a 30 minute+ run on the treadmill. Why I am working out though:
setting good habits and working it into normal regular life
.... I do not junk eat after the gym, period. On fast days after a workout I have no interest in ruining my efforts
toning, maintaining/building muscle
+ bigger calorie deficit! every little helps

I am realistic that my 1-2 hr gym session is <1k calories, possibly even half that.

Have you tried working out before breakfast? By delaying breakfast (or skipping it entirely) you get an advantage in the continuous-hours (eg: 16:8) calorie-burn department by training the body to burn more fat. Why does this happen? Because breakfast carbs aren't there to trigger insulin which interrupts fat burning in favor of fat storage. Realize that it will take a few weeks to get to the point you won't feel exhausted after what's become a normal workout, but it will come.

What is different this time. Good question. The reality is, losing weight is the easy part, keeping it off is much tougher. I am all but done with eating bread and pasta - I literally don't crave it, and don't consume it. Fruit juice - maybe it is trivial in the grand scheme, but that is gone too. I see 6:1 as the natural succession for maintenance.

For long term success it's best to not completely avoid any food category because, irrespective of the level of conviction, our bodies tend to counter deprivations with a vengeance. Instead, learn to identify and accommodate your bodies tolerance level for various food types. A piece or two of artisan loaf or slice of pizza won't hurt. Eating the whole loaf or the entire pie however wrecks the best of long term intentions.

Also things that I have learned in the past year:
3 meals a day is not the norm or right thing. So many times, I ate without being hungry because... it's breakfast, it's lunch, it's dinner time.

Most of us, I believe, were raised eating by the clock and certainly to eat everything on our plates.

Here's a question, how does a person eat a 2000 calorie healthy lunch/dinner? I don't want extra carbs and sugar, I eat a lot of beetroot, so I am not carbless, but I don't want to pad meals out with carbs

Believe it or not, fat is what ultimately fills that gap. Attempts to eat even more protein is self-limiting; eat too much and you will get sick. Carbs have a proven negative impact on most people's body chemistry. Fat is what remains. Once you understand the effects of carbohydrates on your body, fats for the most part - included saturated ones - no longer matter.

The problem is I don't believe my TDEE is 2800 - because that would mean I had been eating thousands and thousands of extra calories (tens of) to reach this point.

To me TDEE is an interesting measure in dietary science but far more smoke than fire where practical application is concerned. I eat no-where near my estimated TDEE even if I use the sedentary value. And I don't bother to adjust the value upwards for exercise estimates, viewing the additional calorie burn as a bonus.

Yes, that is in tune with my thinking. Last time I did fasting the week was something like>
monday: fast (500kcal) + gym
tuesday: fast (500kcal)
wednesday: feed (1000-1200kcal) + gym
thursday: feed (1000-1200kcal) + gym
friday: fast (500kcal)
saturday: feed (2000kcal) + sport
sunday: feed (1500kcal) + sport

And so with a TDEE somewhere around 3000, and using MFP to track intake (calories) alongside exertion (linked to my endomondo sport tracker, itself linked to my heart rate monitor) 5 times a week, I was generating a deficit of upto 3500 on fast days, and upto 2300 on feed days, based on 3k TDEE, 500-1000 cals from the gym.

You'd think the weight would fly off, but it didn't. The response on here was "eat more", and that's something I am going to try and do on feed days this time. Previously, the only day I got close to my daily calories intake, was the day of junk eating (mcdonalds, kebab, pizza etc)

Accordingly, I am so worried about consuming too much that it's a struggle to get anywhere near what I should be eating on feed days.

2350 calories just feels gluttonous, and not just that, but without eating junk food I don't know how I could get anywhere near that target.

Agree from experience here too. Any issues of becoming ravenously hungry if you skip a meal or two?

Fast days have made me realise the difference between real and fake hunger. When I feel hungry I feel sick in my stomach, but it is short lived. On fast days I used to start with a breakfast and chew gum, I now do better not even eating.

About the workouts - I agree that weight loss is at least 75% diet. 500calories intake is a sausage roll. To burn those 500 calories off in the gym is probably a 30 minute+ run on the treadmill. Why I am working out though:
setting good habits and working it into normal regular life
.... I do not junk eat after the gym, period. On fast days after a workout I have no interest in ruining my efforts
toning, maintaining/building muscle
+ bigger calorie deficit! every little helps

I am realistic that my 1-2 hr gym session is <1k calories, possibly even half that.

Have you tried working out before breakfast? By delaying breakfast (or skipping it entirely) you get an advantage in the continuous-hours (eg: 16:8) calorie-burn department by training the body to burn more fat. Why does this happen? Because breakfast carbs aren't there to trigger insulin which interrupts fat burning in favor of fat storage. Realize that it will take a few weeks to get to the point you won't feel exhausted after what's become a normal workout, but it will come.

I've been aiming to work out in the mornings for the past year, and still not gotten round to it. I think I just have to accept that morning workouts aren't for me.

On my fast days I skip breakfast. Today, because I want to try and reach 1800+, I did eat breakfast, but I am starting to see it as a meal to banish at all times.

What is different this time. Good question. The reality is, losing weight is the easy part, keeping it off is much tougher. I am all but done with eating bread and pasta - I literally don't crave it, and don't consume it. Fruit juice - maybe it is trivial in the grand scheme, but that is gone too. I see 6:1 as the natural succession for maintenance.

For long term success it's best to not completely avoid any food category because, irrespective of the level of conviction, our bodies tend to counter deprivations with a vengeance. Instead, learn to identify and accommodate your bodies tolerance level for various food types. A piece or two of artisan loaf or slice of pizza won't hurt. Eating the whole loaf or the entire pie however wrecks the best of long term intentions.

I had pizza probably a month ago, but this time I didn't order a Large pizza all to myself! I just want it to be a treat, never the norm. The occasional chocolate bar, cake etc is still contributing to my sugar/carb intake, I just want it to be less frequent - at least weekly, preferably every 2+ weeks

Here's a question, how does a person eat a 2000 calorie healthy lunch/dinner? I don't want extra carbs and sugar, I eat a lot of beetroot, so I am not carbless, but I don't want to pad meals out with carbs

Believe it or not, fat is what ultimately fills that gap. Attempts to eat even more protein is self-limiting; eat too much and you will get sick. Carbs have a proven negative impact on most people's body chemistry. Fat is what remains. Once you understand the effects of carbohydrates on your body, fats for the most part - included saturated ones - no longer matter.

[/quote]
So I expected that answer. I don't like nuts. I don't want to dramatically increase my red meat intake, and in the week I have very limited cooking means. I either want something that prepares fast, or something that I can make a batch to last the week.

I am struggling to identify raising fat/calorie intake without the sharp carbs rise

The problem is I don't believe my TDEE is 2800 - because that would mean I had been eating thousands and thousands of extra calories (tens of) to reach this point. I would say that I've been eating at a weekly deficit for more than 2 years now (based on what I eat at each meal), and whilst the trend has been downward for the whole time, it certainly hasn't equalled the level of weight loss for my diet/intake that such an excess should deliver.

2350 calories just feels gluttonous, and not just that, but without eating junk food I don't know how I could get anywhere near that target...

Here's a question, how does a person eat a 2000 calorie healthy lunch/dinner? I don't want extra carbs and sugar, I eat a lot of beetroot, so I am not carbless, but I don't want to pad meals out with carbs

I wonder if you might enjoy reading some of the blog, Suppversity, which is well-regarded and has lots of thoughtful pieces about research findings related to food intake and exercise. All of these issues are addressed there in considerable detail.

http://suppversity.blogspot.co.uk

In a nutshell, I'd say that once an endocrine system is perturbed by above a certain level of body fat, it is easier for some metabolisms to down-regulate and to start preferentially laying down additional fat. So, it doesn't involve eating anything like the quantity of excess food that one might imagine in order to gain excess avoirdupois because our metabolisms also don't advise us that they've made us feel a little more tired, are putting a little less intensity into some activities or have slightly shifted our body's thermostats.

2350kcals doesn't strike me as at all gluttonous, particularly not for a chap, and especially not for 117kgs. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to resort to less desirable food choices to reach that target unless you are unable to eat obvious choices such as nuts because a few macadamias, a couple of brazil nuts and some almonds/hazelnuts as a mix in to some full fat Greek Yoghurt and that would be an easy way to reach your allowance.* ETA: you posted in the interim and I now see that you don't like nuts.

Having a small piece of cheese or some chocolate as a coda to your meal isn't necessarily a carb heavy addition to it and might more closely resemble that make-up of the food intake to which you aspire?

[So I expected that answer. I don't like nuts. I don't want to dramatically increase my red meat intake, and in the week I have very limited cooking means. I either want something that prepares fast, or something that I can make a batch to last the week.

I am struggling to identify raising fat/calorie intake without the sharp carbs rise

Maybe it might be easier for people to suggest appropriate food items if you can outline the items you don't like and what your version of a healthy food intake looks like? E.g., approx. contribution of carbs, protein, fats to your intake?

It seems that there's a lot of food I don't like - my partner would call me a fussy eater!
wheras i'd consider myself not to be fussy - because I could quite easily eat the same thing every day for weeks!

I don't like nuts.
Chocolate gives me migraine so I never touch it in the week. I also only like milk chocolate (don't like dark)
Cheese can(might) give me a migraine + I don't like cold cheese (cooked is fine, but again I avoid it)
Intolerance to wheat (occasional is okay, and I still drink beer)
I don't like coconut, pineapple, grapefruit
I hate celery, otherwise like most vegetables
I eat all fish, all meats (but don't want to increase my red meat consumption)

I'm not sure me listing out foods that I dislike is all that helpful, since I don't really know the types and categories that are most relevant to answer the question.

In the week (i work away) I cook/eat for one, and simplicity is the name of the game. I have meagre cooking utensils and a tiny fridge which hampers storage, and I really can't be bothered to spend hours preparing a meal for one. I also try to eat before 7pm, which since I get in from the gym around 6.15-6.30 doesn't leave all that much time to prepare food.

Is this along the right lines of the types of answers you require?