The FastDay Forum

Thanks guys. I know about Dr Harvie's research from PhilT's earlier posts. A single sheet which outlines the trial and its findings can be downloaded here (you may have to log in to your Google account and then choose the download option).

As mole3 says, this research was done in 2011 and tested 3 different diets, one of which (called 'ICR' in the research) appears now to have taken the public stage as 'The Two-Day Diet'. This version of the diet has two special days in each week but without any stated calorie restriction on the two days, instead the restriction is on what foodstuffs you can eat (<40g carbohydrates); another diet in the trial did the same thing but imposed a 25% energy restriction as well, and the health benefits of both were the same.

The results of this trial were presented privately in December 2011 in the US and were meant to stay within the professional community, perhaps awaiting peer review and official publication (has this yet happened?), but anyway it leaked into the public domain (thanks PhilT for info again). However it didn't much impinge on the public consciousness - how many people have been doing the Two Day Diet since December 2011?!

So... in 2012 the BBC make their Horizon programme about intermittent fasting, and yet in this film they nowhere mention Dr Harvie or the Genesis research. Did they deem the Genesis project work to be irrelevant, or were they unaware of it? Both seem unlikely, all the more so because Dr Mark P Mattson who appears in the programme is listed as one of the authors of the 2011 Genesis research. You may recall he is the guy who suggested to Dr Michael Mosley (too many Dr MMs around here!) that he try 5:2. Surely the suggestion was based at least in part on Dr Mattson's experience with the Genesis trial? Did Dr Mattson never mention the Genesis project to Dr Mosley?

In short, I wonder if there is a slightly complicated relationship between the genesis (!) of these two diets.

Is it possible that the BBC approached Genesis about appearing in the programme and were told to go away, or that Genesis laid down overly onerous conditions? Which might explain why early on in the programme Dr Mosley heads off to the USA when probably the most directly relevant work was going on in Manchester? Was the BBC tiptoeing around the Genesis research when they made the programme?

If Genesis were less than enthusiastic about appearing in the programme in 2012 why would that be? Did they not want anyone getting ahead of them in exploiting the commercial opportunity for a new diet?

I welcome correction or addition to the above. And where it is unverifiable from public sources it is pure surmise, I hasten to say, I have no inside info, I am just curious!

I noticed that it is more expensive on Kindle than as a paperback, but that it's not yet available on Kindle.

FYI... the "5:2 diet book" is £1.99 on Kindle as Cheap as Chips (I'm rather enjoying it)

Dominic,

In Dr MMs "The Fast Diet", "Michelle Harvie" is referenced on pages: 41, 76, 123 and in the references and index.

Here's the first: "Well, Dr Michelle Harvie, a dietician based at the Genesis Breast Cancer Prevention Centre at the Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester, has done a number of studies assessing the effects of a two-day fast on female volunteers. In a recent study, she divided 115 women into three groups..."

Seems to give appropriate acknowledgement to me. I wouldn't want to guess as to why they weren't in the original program.

Carole: I can copy and paste from my PC kindle app (which is how I printed out all the recipes)

[carorees]

Carole: I can copy and paste from my PC kindle app (which is how I printed out all the recipes)

Yes, so can I but I was writing my reply on my phone

"Yes, so can I but..."

perhaps Dr Mosley failed a gender test when he approached Genesis

I suspect that everyone is going to be jumping on the '5:2' bandwagon now that it looks as though it's a real way forward. And call me cynical but I think something that's called 'the 2-day diet' is just a selling point. I'll be interested to hear if there's anything radically different to Dr MM's approach.

I too find it depressing how rapidly the diet Industry is jumping on the bandwagon and complicating things and setting rules to confuse people so that they remain dependent on buying stuff when common sense will do.

Just before I got barred from Mumsnet I summarised IF / 4:3 / 5:2 thus

2 days per week = 500 calories
2 days per week = try to keep to your TDEE
2 days per week = try to stay within 10 % over your TDEE
1 day per week = splurge

but publishers won't make much money out of that.

[carorees]

I like your diet plan TIP but I think the 2 days you say keep to TDEE should be safer if it was 10% under. The calorie restriction on 5:2 is fairly modest (20%) so it's easy to end up not losing weight if you go over TDEE too often. I particularly like the splurge bit!

I am a bit dissapointed - I strongly urged my parents to have a look at the daily mail articles this week because I thought it was dr mm's version. I haven't read the articles but from what I have heard about it I can't see them doing this - it will probably put them off tbh

Caro,
Interestingly, for a lot of people who have a fair bit of weight to lose, staying at TDEE is a HUGE reduction on what they are used to eating.
One lady had been eating nearly double her TDEE (she was 5 feet tall and not active).
So people have been losing quite a lot of weight with the approach I stated.

Giraffes - remember this is the Daily Fail we are talking about : they will set 5:2 up and then slag it off next week !

[carorees]

TIP: it's tricky isn't it? If you look at the frequency distribution in the progress tracker stats you can see that weight loss is very variable. I think each person has to find their own way and also to understand that they may have to adapt it as time goes on.

I'm generally sticking to your plan though!

I have read the stuff in the Daily Mail about the 2-Day Diet. It seems to be far too complicated, and far too much like a 7 day diet for my liking. It is trying so hard not to count calories. You are allowed a set number of portions of protein and carbs on eating days, based on your current weight - apparently it works out to 1000 calories a day on the two consecutive non-carb days - not sure about the other 5. You aren't supposed to eat white bread, pasta or rice. The portions for protein are all different weights depending on what you want to eat. I am sorry to sound negative, but I just can't see it catching on, unless you are very high risk for breast cancer - then you might be motivated to try it. Something I really don't like is the way that 5:2 is rubbished in the effort to talk up the new system - I don't know if the authors consented to it, but it is not supportive at all.

Needs to be simple or it's unsustainable once other things take priority.

Simple, it ain't!