The FastDay Forum

Hi im on my 2nd fast day this week,but ive read soooo much on different articles about this WOE, i read something about eating less protein on fast days ,( something about cell renewal???? forgive me for being ignorant but i thought reducing carbs would be beneficial,i think maybe i should stop reading so much and just get on with this WOE. xxx if someone could reply in simple terms please lol

[carorees]

Hi anndav

Yes, in the Horizon documentary and in Michael and Mimi's book, Michael talks about reducing our daily protein intake to around 0.8g of protein for every kg of body weight. That's about 60g per day for someone who weighs 70kg.

The studies ages ago that showed reducing calorie intake made rats live longer revealed that the amount of a substance called IGF1, which promotes growth was decreased by calorie restriction. In humans this decrease only occurs if we keep protein down as well as calories. The fasting deals with the calories and reducing protein deals with the IGF1. The hope is that by reducing IGF1 it will lower our risk of developing cancer and other conditions that result in too much cell growth.

So the protein thing is not to do with weight loss but the hoped for other benefits.

Most people in the developed world eat much more protein than their bodies need. A single chicken breast contains more than enough protein for an adults's daily needs.

Remember though that 60g protein does not mean 60g meat!

I'm not worrying about it too much, just being mindful that it is better to have more veg and less meat/cheese in my diet.

Yes this is a mess. Contradictory messages. Confusion on fast vs feed day protein. Health benefits or weight loss may dictate different approach.

More work required

[carorees]

Sorry Phil...was my explanation wrong? I tried to deal with what we know (not much) and what we hope without discussing fast vs feed day protein. I should have thought that as long as one consumes just a bit more than the amount that an adult is estimated to need it would represent a reasonable balance? It would be worth trying to come up with an acceptable message for the average person (i.e., not a body builder/extreme athlete). The 0.8g/kg idea sounds rational to me.

I think that eating less meat and more veg is good in many ways not just for reducing IGF1 but also for saving money and having less impact on the planet's resources!

I think PhilT was commenting on the messages in general, not specifically your response!

It's like the debate on carbs - some passionately believe they are the devil, some insist that they don't impede weight loss at all. People trying to increase their muscle mass will be encouraged to consume more protein to assist in that, and they'll aim for about 1g per pound of Lean Body Mass. But it's accepted that protein makes you feel fuller, so it's a useful thing on a fast day. Though with only 500 calories to play with, the level of protein consumed on a fast day is likely to be nowhere near the daily requirements/ targets we've talked about.

[carorees]

Yes, I've found that I can have a larger proportion of protein on a fat day but still keep under 60g.

Re the carb thing. I read about a study of dieting that found some people lose weight much much better on a low carb diet than a low fat diet and vice versa so I think really it depends on the person. Not sure that sugar is ever good though (apart from the taste of course)!

I think PhilT was commenting on the messages in general, not specifically your response!

Correct. The situation is a mess.

We have a large part of the scientific evidence base saying less protein - for example Varady with subjects on less than 30g protein on fast days in several clinical studies. If these are the basis of the whole "5:2 Fast Diet" then surely that's part of the diet protocol.

I find this whole subject incredibly confusing, too, with so many conflicting theories. I'm attracted to a combination of low carb/paleo/IF for weight loss but it's difficult to see how this can be achievable if protein needs to be severely restricted for health benefits. Does it have to be a case of either/or, or is there a middle road?

I don't think protein needs to be severely restricted if you're chasing that aspect of health benefit, but it's unlikely to be more than 25% of your calorie intake and possibly more like 15%.

The fats and oils are what you need most of if you're low carb.

[carorees]

I suspect that the problem is that on the whole people eat too much of everything apart from fruit and vegetables! Probably we have evolved to eat quantities more like the CRONies and we really need around 25% less calories than the calculated TDEE suggests!

http://www.npt.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=3360 suggests 45g/day of protein for women and 55g/day for men - only about 9% of calories.

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/nutguideuk.pdf also says 55g (hospitals, prisons etc)

I don't think protein needs to be severely restricted if you're chasing that aspect of health benefit, but it's unlikely to be more than 25% of your calorie intake and possibly more like 15%.

The fats and oils are what you need most of if you're low carb.

I think you're right re fats and oils but, really, that sounds sooo unappetising! And, anyway, in what form since protein is restricted to, say, 25% and carbs are almost off the menu altogether. I understood that low carb equalled high protein and I'm struggling to understand how you could consume the necessary fat calories. Maybe I need to do more research? Can you point me in the right direction please?

I understood that low carb equalled high protein and I'm struggling to understand how you could consume the necessary fat calories

as a starter for 10, eggs, cheddar cheese and various oily fish are all 60-70% calories from fat and low carb. Beef mince at around 20% fat is 70% energy from fats. Almonds are 80%, mayo and cream obviously is higher still.

So picking higher fat protein sources like the above and eating with lots of low carb low GI vegetables (which don't have many calories so don't dilute things much) can give you 70% calories from fat on a day.