The FastDay Forum

Hello all, my first post here!

I'm a 33 year old male, normal BMI and blood sugar with slightly elevated cholesterol and BP. I'm deliberating whether or not to start 5:2 as a programme to improve overall health and longevity. I've also heard many great things about the potential of 5:2 to mitigate against cognitive decline. I hope I'm a long way off that

My question is, are most people here using 5:2 as a weight loss aid or are there others like me who feel that it may be a good pre-emptive step to avoid problems later down the line?

[carorees]

Hi boggie

Yes, there are quite a few on here who don't need to lose weight...there is a longish thread about it somewhere!

hi boggey- we are all doing it for our very own reasons but I suppose most are doing it for weightloss and health reasons. You are lucky to have only one of these to content with!!! good luck- ursula

Thanks for your replies. I've already done this for a couple of days and if nothing else it gives me a slight lift and makes me feel more awake.

I'm very frustrated with my GP as she completely discredited 5:2 as nothing more than a fad and potentially dangerous. The NHS as a whole also take a very dim view. I only went to the GP to request a cholesterol check (having slightly elevated cholesterol + family history of heart disease) and I was refused and told not to worry about such things at my age. I found this to be very unhelpful, granted I don't have a weight problem but I am trying to adopt a lifestyle that will reduce my risk of developing similar cardiac problems as my farther.

The science behind 5:2 is very compelling and has a strong evolutionary basis. Peer-reviewed evidence shows a number of positive health indicators for intermittent fasting, albeit mostly in rodents. Then it is difficult to do longevity trials in humans! But further to that the results on this board are overwhelmingly positive. It's a shame some doctors don't take a more pragmatic view!

[carorees]

I'm astonished that your GP would not let you have a cholesterol check!!! I think there are walk in clinics where you can get it done and I have seen those mobile health portacabin things that offer BP and cholesterol checks. Not sure how you find out about one in your area, but might be worth a try?

Hi boggey79, I sympathize with your frustration as I'm sure we all do!

The topic of how appropriate 5:2 is for those of normal weight has cropped up a number of times. I think we could do with pulling together (in an FAQ?) the information about the mooted health benefits of 5:2 - apart from the (substantial) health benefits of weight loss for the overweight. There is a danger (in my opinion) that the overwhelming interest here in weight loss might lead some visitors to conclude that the forum or - worse - the intermittent fasting lifestyle is not for them.

It would also give an educational opportunity ('ammunition') to anyone like boggey79 who is faced with a doctor who knows little or nothing about the matter but looks over her (or his) half-moon spectacles and says knowingly: 'take it from me, this is a dangerous fad'.

As I see it there are 3 potential wins for intermittent fasting (including 5:2) quite apart from any weight loss. They might each be considered as speculative, probable or proven, I'm not sure. I'm very open to correction and addition here, I'm trying to get it clear in my own head!

1. Autophagy - fasting gives the body 'repair time' to fix cellular disrepair which is otherwise missing in a typical Western diet. Spring cleaning for the body! Hence reduced risk of ailments relating to cellular disrepair (especially cancer, I suppose). See for instance http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1396.020/abstract.
2. Adaptive cellular stress - from the work of Dr Mark P Mattson with mice, the idea that fasting can make the brain regenerate cells and be protective against degenerative ailments (especially dementia, I suppose.)
3. Lowered IGF-1 - insulin growth factor 1, a growth hormone mostly produced in the liver, is critical for growth in the young but associated with accelerated ageing and with cancer in mature adults. It is increasingly accepted (a/c to Wikipedia anyway!) that IGF-1 is not just a marker but a pathogen (=contributory cause) for both. Under the supervision of Dr Valter Longo, Dr Mosley found that an almost-total 3 day fast reduced his IGF-1 substantially, and later found that following his 5:2 regime also lowered it (and with less anguish!). Returning to an ordinary diet causes IGF-1 to return rapidly to its previous level.

There is in my mind something contradictory between the idea of 'repair time' when the body doesn't go for growth hell-for-leather, and - at the same time - cellular stress promoting cell regrowth. Can they both be right?

Re the IGF-1: is it fasting per se that causes the IGF-1 reduction, or is it avoiding certain foods that trigger production of IGF-1? Maybe these foods get avoided in a fast almost 'by accident' unless one takes a disproportionate amount of them on a fast day. Obvious candidate: milk.

[carorees]

Good idea about the FAQ dominic

Re IGF-1, this is just one of many molecules that have been associated with an increased risk of cancer. You really need to look at what activates mTOR and FOXO1 pathways, these are so-called 'energy sensitive' pathways. Activation of mTOR is seen in many cancers and IGF-1 interacts with the mTOR pathway. My reading suggests that excess protein OR carbohydrate can activate mTOR. This would suggest that by lowering the calorie intake we reduce mTOR activation but that keeping protein and milk intake low also helps. However, mTOR/FOXO is not the whole of the story and trying to work out what actually goes on is very difficult unless you are devoting your life to the research!

Thanks Caroline for that much more detailed info. So I guess there are two benefits from fasting re cancer:

1. reduced calorie intake is good because excess protein or carbohydrate activates mTOR
2. lowered intake of (animal) protein and milk is especially helpful

I can understand the connection of milk with IGF-1 because milk is produced for calves which need to grow. And cows milk was not part of the human diet until quite recently. I don't see why animal protein otherwise should be associated with it? We humans are naturally and evolutionarily omnivores, aren't we? (please don't flame me, vegetarians!)

Dominic + Carorees, thank you for your detailed replies! I'm convinced of the benefits. I'd heard about some of these points on the Dr Mosley Horizon documentary and others I am currently reading about in Dr Mosley's book.

I'd like to get an IGF-1 test, I'm guessing I'd need to go private for this? I'm looking for a target to work to, and to buoy me along. Many here would use weight loss as a tangible way to measure success but for me if I could see some changes in my blood profile that would be really encouraging.

[carorees]

Dominic: I've posted a link to a good starting point for getting to grips with FOXO in nerds corner! (here)

@Caroline: thanks, will read it there...

@boggey79: yes for an IGF-1 test you have to go private, for instance: http://www.medichecks.com/index.cfm?s=2&d=21&test=SOMA&name=IGF1. £119, it gets cheaper if you combine it with other tests. These people also have an interesting blog about their own fasting at http://www.medichecks.com/index.cfm?s=5&d=6. If you have it done (more than once, presumably) it would be great if you let us here know the results, for obvious reasons there is very little info about how 5:2 affects IGF-1.

I will be booking an apt. next week. I will report back here with my results.