The FastDay Forum

Hi Everyone. I am very happy to have found this forum. I am from Australia and it looks like we are a bit behind the times and I hadn't really heard of IF before this week. A bit of history for you all: Early last year I was at a conference about aged care and ageing. Michael Mosley was one of the key note speakers talking about the program "The Young Ones". He mentioned some of his other programs (The truth about exercise) and happened to mention that he was about to embark on a new bit of research about fasting. This sparked my interest and over the last few months, I have managed to find some of his docos online and even bought the DVD of the Young Ones for work (I work as an aged services researcher). Recently I heard about the Horizon program on fasting, couldn't find a copy anywhere (although I have since) and came across mention of the book which I purchased immediately and read with great fascination.

As someone who is 51, is medicated for high blood pressure, menopausal and on HRT, overweight by about 10-15kg which can't be shifted despite constantly watching what I eat and exercising like a fiend, the 5:2 way of eating seemed like a good thing to try. At least it would do no harm and I am heartily sick of counting every single calorie that goes into my mouth.

Last week, I did my first fast without too much trouble. I even went to my early morning kickboxing session with no ill effects.

Anyway, finally, I come to my question. From my reading of the research, it seems that the calorie restriction from the fasting sends our bodies into repair mode as it doesn't have to metabolise all of the food that we normally eat. Along with my BP tab and HRT, I generally take fish oil tabs and a multivitamin. I decided not to take the fish oil due to the calories (60cal) but I was unsure about the multivitamin. Surely if we are restricting our food and as a result the goodness (vitamins and minerals) we get from it and that is the cause of the repair mode our body goes into, wouldn't having a multivitamin counteract that benefit? Especially as in a tablet format, the body would not have to digest the food to extract the vitamins.

Any thoughts?

[carorees]

Hi Mousie and welcome to the forum

I think you should not need the vitamin supplement but not for the reason you suggest. The supplement will have so few calories that it would not affect digestion. I just think that if you are eating well on your 5 normal days and using your calories wisely on fast days, you will be getting enough vitamins and minerals.

Here in the UK there is some question about vitamin D but I don't think that'll be an issue for you...especially at this time of year!

No vitamin d is plentiful at this time of year here. But, many people are deficient here because they stay out of the sun and constantly wear sun screen. It's actually quite a big problem with kids being deficient and showing physical signs of deficiency.

I think I will ditch the vitamin tablets. My diet is pretty good so I am probably just taking them out of habit

Vit D is an issue in the UK. About a third of the population are thought to be vit d deficient in the UK. It's difficult to be sure due to the assay for vit d only recently being widely available. The increase in deficiency is thought to be linked to lifestyle more than dietary deficiency, we have a more sedentary and indoor lifestyle than 50 years ago and if we are out in the sun use sunblock more frequently. I found out I was severely vit d deficient about a 18 months ago, surprising as I have some out door hobbies but do use sun cream. Vit d deficiency can cause a variety of problems particularly joint and muscle pains. I started vit d replacement (1000iu per day), not sure if its made any difference that I can notice but blood tests better. I don't generally hold with vitamin supplements but fish oils and vit d do seem to have some evidence behind them.

[carorees]

Oh, that's v interesting, thanks for that info. Now, I'm sure I've got a half used bottle of fish oil tablets somewhere....*wanders off*

The evidence for fish oil is strong for a healthy cardiovascular system, your brain and for joint issues. It has an anti inflammatory effect. But you do need to take enough. You need to take the equivalent of 1800mg of DHA and EPA, which of my double strength capsules is 3 a day and they are very large capsules which are a bit off putting

I take both Vit D and fish oils for the same reasons and also I have noticed a huge improvement in the severity of my SAD symptoms since taking Vit D over the last couple of winters. I was not tested for deficiency and didn't know I could be so know idea if I was deficient but I do believe in the benefits of both of these.

You can buy some very high EPA containing capsules there is one brand called MoreEPA and a few others that I've sourced on the Internet. However you do have to check the contents listed as even if labelled high strength/super strength they do vary in their actual EPA/dha content. My inflammatory markers in my blood tests (esr and crp for those who have some medical knowledge) which usually run slightly high go down to normal when I take the fish oils and then come back up when I stop them so they do seem to have an anti-inflammatory effect on me. The problem with taking the fish oil all the time is that most of them cause me to have fishy indigestion (pretty disgusting) or the ones that have no flavour such as the MoreEPA are expensive about £20+ per month. I'm also a bit wary of possible long term side effects of the super high strength fish oil supplements as this seems an un-natural situation, so I take the fish oils for a month or 2 then stop for a couple on months etc. until there is some clearer evidence I think I will continue to do this. Also as now fasting I will miss the supplements on a fast day as they are about 60 calories and I would prefer to use the calories on food!

[carorees]

Dr M says there is evidence that fasting is anti inflammatory (and there are papers on pubmed I've spotted that report animal studies showing this), so maybe your biomarkers might improve as you go on.

Some folks have reported improvements in asthma and eczema to Dr M on his twitter feed, but of course the placebo effect of fasting must be pretty big!

How do you know if you're Vit D deficient? What are the symptoms?

[carorees]

Jem, Nikipins mentioned a few symptoms:

Vit D is an issue in the UK. About a third of the population are thought to be vit d deficient in the UK. It's difficult to be sure due to the assay for vit d only recently being widely available. The increase in deficiency is thought to be linked to lifestyle more than dietary deficiency, we have a more sedentary and indoor lifestyle than 50 years ago and if we are out in the sun use sunblock more frequently. I found out I was severely vit d deficient about a 18 months ago, surprising as I have some out door hobbies but do use sun cream. Vit d deficiency can cause a variety of problems particularly joint and muscle pains. I started vit d replacement (1000iu per day), not sure if its made any difference that I can notice but blood tests better. I don't generally hold with vitamin supplements but fish oils and vit d do seem to have some evidence behind them.

Perhaps she can tell you how to get tested when she next visits us!

I'm back.

I had my vit d tested because I have some kidney problems and the kidneys are needed to activate vit d (sunlight on the skin and the metabolism in the liver is also needed to activate it, so metabolism is quite complex).
The main symptoms of vitamin deficiency are aches and pains, but it has also been linked with low mood and depression. In severe longterm deficiency rickets, osteomalacia (bone thinning in adults) and osteoporosis can occur. The lab test for vit d used to be difficult and expensive and so was rarely done but it is much more widely available now and so many more tests are being done and its become clear quite how much deficiency there is in the general population. If you have suggestive symptoms (but then who doesn't have aches and pains) you could ask your gp for a test. If they refuse or don't feel it's necessary and you still think its a possibility then you can always take supplements from chemist/health shop. 800 to 1000 units of vit D3 a day are recommended in adults ( as long as you have normal kidneys and liver if not make sure you check with your gp). You can even just take the supplements during the autumn and winter when light levels are at their lowest and rely on your body to metabolise the correct amount in the sunny (!!UK sunny!?) months.

I hope that's of help

Jem-a blood test will tell if you're deficient or not. I am severely deficient and my doctor put my on a prescription vitamin D supplement. But I never got the thing filled and instead just take a high dosage vitamin D3 that I bought over the counter at the grocery store. I only remember to take it a few times a week though (need to get better at this!).

Besides that I take a daily pro-biotic and then a baby aspirin (doctor's orders, to help prevent another blood clot). I do not take a multivitamin. I do have fish oil capsules, but it's another one I rarely remember to take.