The FastDay Forum

Hi folks

I've been doing quite well up until the new year, when I hit a plateau. I need to lose a lot more weight than most of us here, and was doing 4:3 with about 600 cals on the 3 fast days, and leaving 24 hours between my last meal on the day before and an evening meal on the fast day. But I found I was having increasing trouble on fast days because once I ate on the evening of the fast day I couldn't stop or found it really hard not to eat. I had quickly reached a point after a couple of months where fasting during the day was dead easy - I didn't care whether I ate or not, but once I ate ANYTHING during the day? - boy, then it got tough.

So in early Jan I found I was not losing for a week or two, and I found I was actually happier and compliance was easier by just not eating at all for 36 hours. And it seemed to kick start the weight loss again for that week or so.

But then I got ill for a week and various other life-related things happened to sabotage things. The upshot has been although I've been doing 36 hour fasts one or two or three times a week for the last month, though not as consistently as I was before Xmas, I've seen no weight loss for ages - since about the middle of January. Check my chart here: tracker.php?p=progress&userid=277

I'm really gutted! And feeling a bit desperate - this whole thing is not "I'd like to be a bit thinner" but serious stuff for me; they don't call it "morbidly obese" for nothing! I need to lose these remaining 30kg and I really thought I'd be well under 95 by now, based on my progress up to the new year.

I have two theories:

1. Maybe I've been eating WAY more than I should on the other days. Have I taken "eat what you want" a little too literally perhaps?

2. Perhaps the 36 hour fasts (7pm day before through to 7am day after fast day) are doing something unexpected to metabolism/blood chemistry so the routine is not having the same effect as the normal recommended restricted cals on fast days.

I saw a comment from someone who'd been doing exactly the same - 3x36 hour fasts since the beginning, though, and lost loads.

So any thoughts folks? Anyone else hit a big plateau and got through it? What did you do?

I think I'm going to go back to basics and try 12hrs/breakfast/12hours/tea/12hours while being a bit more careful on the normal days. No more hobnobs!

Cheers

Ian

Ian,

"1. Maybe I've been eating WAY more than I should on the other days. Have I taken "eat what you want" a little too literally perhaps? "

I think you need to audit your feed days. Try tracking what you eat on feed days on MyFitnessPal or similar for a week or so, just see what the pattern is...

P.S.

I have to say that your results to date are inspirational and I'm sure that you'll get through this...

[carorees]

Hi Ian

Sorry to hear your progress has stopped (for now). A few thoughts:

1) have you calculated your new TDEE? It is likely to have decreased with the weight loss
2) how does the new TDEE compare with what you are actually eating on feed days?
3) if you have been very much undereating then yes your metabolism might have slowed more than just the weight loss would cause
4) the 36 hour fasts may have resulted in lower thyroid function (changes in thyroid function have been seen after as little as 24 hours of fasting)
5) Once you know your TDEE you should try calorie counting on feed days for a bit
6) I think you could safely go to 18-20 hours complete fast before eating if you don't want to go the breakfast route
7) try combining fasting with low carb eating (if you haven't already).

Good luck!

Alternate day true fasting with 36 hours has been used in clinical trials and despite being told to eat a lot more on feed days they lost weight.

Varady's trials tend to use 400-600 calorie lunches at 12:00-14:00 on the alternate fast days.

22:00 to 18:00 is another regime that has worked in trials, so I don't think it's the fasting part that's causing the problem.

[carorees]

Phil, remember that Varady's trials were only for 8 weeks so once we go beyond that we don't know whether fasting every other day might result in metabolic changes designed to reduce weight loss. Also thyroid function decreases have been seen with as little as 24 hours of fasting so 36 hours with no calories might reduce thyroid function but whether by a significant amount we don't know. Mind you I agree that it is the feast days that are probably the problem.

You've lost 20kg, you (more precisely, your body) might need a breather. Do the things Caro suggested but also try to relax (and I don't mean eat) just take it easy and don't fixate on external goals, as that's a brain thing. Go with the WoE, do it properly and eat well and chill, eventually, you'll lose weight again, just from the maths of calorie restriction.

You didn't mention exercise. Just wondered if you are managing to do anything regularly? If not, including regular sessions could make the difference you need... Just a thought! Good luck with it anyway. Whatever you do, don't give up. You will get there in the end.

Hi all

Thanks for the comments all, some really helpful stuff in there! Really appreciated.

A few thoughts:

Exercise: I've been a lot more active as time has gone on, and this is one of the best things about doing 5:2, quite aside from the weight loss or putative health benefits - I just feel great most of the time and both have the desire and the ability to maintain a level of activity that was completely beyond me before.

I won't go back to the gym again; can't afford it and don't have time. I will start running once I lose some more weight and my knees have a chance of taking it! But I have started doing martial arts again and try to do a great deal more walking. I have just invested in a Fitbit pedometer that syncs wirelessly with my iPhone and the web so am enjoying that this week. I'm a software developer so normally completely sedentary, but with a bit of effort managed 12,000 steps yesterday! The calorie contribution is neglible - I think I added perhaps another 300 calories to my daily expenditure as a result of the 6-7000 extra steps I did yesterday. But I am sure it's good for me in all sorts of ways; mentally, physically etc.

Logging what I eat: It's the sensible thing to do, isn't it? Am bummed out because not tracking food and calories is one of the great attractions of 5:2 over other WoE and was part of the appeal of doing real fasts instead of trying to work within the calorie budget, which I was always quite casual about anyway.

I have read in many places that people who keep an honest food diary (even without tracking calories) are much more likely to lose weight than those who don't. So I'll do that for a while; I'll try to track the calories too but one of the other big things about all this is I am a lot more conscious what I eat. I don't want to eat processed food, I want to eat healthy home cooked meals. But tracking calories on that is a nightmare, it's much easier to get a pack from M&S that says 340cals or whatever if you want to track that level of detail.

I had some fun with tracking food on Livestrong.com a year or two ago; they were great for finding stuff I actually buy/eat - someone somewhere would have entered not just "hot cross bun" but "Tesco Finest Hot Cross Bun". I guess myfitnesspal is much the same?

Looking forward to weighing day on Saturday - great idea

Take care all

Ian

[Moogie]

Ian - just a thought but do you have scales which can measure body fat? It may well be that with the extra exercise you've been doing you are converting some fat to muscle, so no obvious weight loss. Keeping an eye on your fat % may give you a boost if you see the numbers going down

Another possiblity, as you still have a fair bit of weight to lose, is that the weight loss is being masked by natural fluctuations in your body weight. Your Funny Uncle posted an interesting topic where he weighed himself each day to show how much it varied naturally. You may find it helpful to weigh daily and take an average to see if that goes down, as weekly changes may be masked by the natural variation.

Also, I assume you probably drink a lot of water on your fast days, as most of us do. Do you drink a similar amount on your feed days? If not, your body could be holding on to extra water. The more water you drink, the less your body retains apparently. I guess it's like a water starvation mode otherwise, if it seems there's not enough water (ie you're not drinking enough) the body will retain more 'just in case'.

The positive in all this is that you're not *gaining * any weight I'm sure we'll find a way to kick start the weight loss, and in fact you may find you naturally pass the plateau given a couple more weeks. It sounds like you've shaken your diet up a lot recently and your body may just need time to adjust again.

I think Caroline already mentioned that you also ought to check your daily calorie needs, as now you're smaller your body won't need as much just to tick over. So, yes you may need to cut down your feed day eating a bit. Not necessarily calorie count, but just cut down the portions a little. This is where traditional dieting 'tricks' can help for a bit - putting down your utensils between mouthfuls, smaller pieces at a time etc - just so that you realise you're full before you've crammed down more than you need to. You won't have to do that forever, you'll adjust to the smaller amounts with a little time and you won't feel like you've missed out on anything for having the smaller portion.

Now I'm in a bit of a panic because a lot of what I'm reading is beyond me!
I'm doing this primarily to be as healthy as I possibly can, and now I'm reading about the possibilities of heart attacks!! Yikes.
Because of 2 weeks of staying the same, I have been trying to keep within my recommended calorie amount on non fast days......is it enough?? Most days I'm not eating till lunch time because I'm not hungry until then.....does this mean I'm fasting too long?..
I don't think I'll read the nerdy stuff as due to my lack of understanding it makes me worry what I'm doing might be detrimental to my health!!

Hi Moogie - thanks for the input! Yes, I have the Omron body composition monitor (similar to the one Dr M used in the documentary) and track the fat and muscle weekly - sometimes as you say there is a compensating change in the ratio which can explain a smaller weight loss if that happens, but this week it went the wrong way! Less muscle, more fat, more weight than the previous week! That's only this week though, usually it's neutral or going in a good direction compared to the previous week.

Because I am a massive nerd, I weigh every day and look at the 7 day rolling average to try to see past the natural variation, and in the past it's been a positive motivator for me. I collect loads of data this way and like playing with the charts in Excel!

I am dimly aware of how complex the whole thing is; the water issue in particular is an interesting one. I tend to drink a great deal of water on fast days - around 2L - and not really drink more than cups of tea/coffee on normal days.

So anyway... as I say I'll try classic 5:2 for a while (March?) and see what occurs while eating more carefully on the feast days (or at any rate less recklessly!) and keeping a food diary. I think the three full fasts were not in any way a sustainable way of eating, but they were a product of my determination to shed this weight as quickly as I can. Now I'm focusing more on the sustainable lifestyle thing.

I stopped taking sugar in tea and coffee when this all started, and changed to sweeteners with skimmed milk. This week as part of the reboot I'm stopping the sweetener and milk and just having black coffee and water to drink on the fast days but going to go 5:2 instead of 4:3 and try to eat my calories on the fast days - probably in the evening, so it's 24/12 instead of 36 hours straight

Thanks again everyone

[carorees]

Have moved the posts about metabolic slow down from PhilT and myself to a new topic in Nerdy stuff as it was getting rather off topic!

Hi Ken

I'm sure you're already aware that losing weight reduces BMR. Losing 20kg as you have done reduces BMR by almost 3,000 calories/week; if at 200kg you're still eating about the same as when you were at 220kg then your weekly weight loss will be nearly one lb less than at the beginning.

Thanks for that!


actually no, I had not considered the possibility that losing weight might mean I used up less energy! Well, not enough to signify anything, anyway.

The variation in BMR over time is interesting too. Quick anecdote; I was working as a contract web developer for a couple months before Xmas and regularly had to go onsite to this office which was attached to an old warehouse with virtually no heating. So I used to sit and shiver all day, even bringing a jumper to wrap round my legs while sitting at the desk. By chance I tended to go there on fasting days, and those were my best weight loss days. I wonder if anyone has done any research on the effect of environmental temperature on BMR?

Anyway, how fascinating... I have seen the figure daily kcals that my scales presents to me gradually reducing over time, but it seemed such a small decrease each week I had disregarded it.

And though 20kg is a fair bit, it is less than half of what I still need to lose to get close to a healthy weight. But if your figures are correct then this is definitely something I need to take on board, and it makes the need to moderate off-day eating even more obvious.

It helps me to lessen my disappointment over having taken the "eat what you want" proposition too literally, for one thing

Off to google BMR...

Thanks again

Ian

[carorees]

Ian see the thread on brown adipose tissue (BAT) and cold hormesis in nerdy stuff. Cold exposure increases BAT because BAT is important I'm generating heat, more BAT = higher BMR. Cold exposure puts mild stress on the body, like fasting, eating green veg or intense exercise and so is beneficial through the principle of hormesis (what doesn't kill though makes you stronger or for the technically minded, heat shock proteins).

Only (health) problem with cold exposure is that your blood pressure goes up so not brilliant for hypertensives.