The FastDay Forum

I'm with Caroline that you have tp find what works for you as an individual. I do well on low carb but I know of lots of people who find themselves much better on high carb. You can't be evangelistic about it just because it works for you. I also found that 5:2 made me unhappy but I've learned from what I've read on here about 16:8 and thats fine!

Do you know Keihira, I would do jyst what you've threatened to do, give your body a huge shock and eat all that stuff for breakfast! Have a really wild day! It may be just what you need to get it out of the rut. Its shaken me off a plateau ( and heaven knows I've had my share!) several times.

Hi keiheira. I hope you enjoyed your breakfast - i think it's fine to have a bit of what you fancy! In fact, it sounds like you're denying yourself all sorts of stuff and combining different diets with fasting (which is fine if you enjoy it, but if you put too many restrictions that you find unpleasant, it is very hard to maintain). I keep going with 5:2, even though it's slow because i have kept on eating my normal diet when not fasting. I would be miserable if i had to follow such a restricted diet as your friend and miss eating out and wine!! I think you need to go a bit easier on yourself - go back to 5:2 basics for a bitand stop denying yourself your favourite foods. Slow and steady and try to enjoy the ride. Good luck with whatever you decide

I agree with the above posts. I am not completely convinced about (starvation mode) but just in case it does happen I mix up my eating plans from fast 2days careful 3days and meals out where anything goes 2days again that's not written in stone some weeks I eat healthier than others, after 20years of to eating bread I now do eat it and the weight is coming off, not quickly but it is coming off, so keep the faith this is a way of life so eat in a manner that you feel you can maintain and relax, it may take a while in fact your neighbour may have put all her weight back on by the time you get to your goal but if you get comfortable with this WOL it will be gone for good. Wishing you all the best

Keihira, as I said yesterday, I feel for you because I am where you are. Yes, I have less to lose but the result is the same.
Personally, I have yet to find proof that low carb has any difference if we're talking about long term diets.
I have two suggestions for you:
1. Why don't you follow your neighbour's diet for a while? It has lots of food, good variety and all you'd have to do is weigh your food everyday (don't you already do that twice a week?).
2. Would you try my new plan for a week or two? It's the Dukan attack (no carbs at all, only low fat protein) for Monday and Tuesday, a fast day with Zero noodles on Wednesday, sensible eating (not low carb) on Thursday, another fast with Zero noodles on Friday and then again sensible eating on the weekend.
The first week I did it I lost almost a kilo which I am now maintaining because in the past couple of weeks I had two very crazy weekends but I'm doing it again this week to see how it works.
I will happily tell you what I'm eating on the two days.
The reason why I mention Zero noodles on fast days it's because they cut my calories in half (less than 300).

Some times just getting impatient and stressing about a stall is enough. Whilst I've been trying to lose weight I have had two very special occasions to attend where I wanted to lose more weight really badly. Both times I just stuck! The annoying thing was coming home expecting to be even more over weight only to have the scales plummet!

Sometimes you just need to chill a bit.

I hope you're right miffy49 - my first "goal" was to be able to look good in a dress for a ball we're going to on 22 June, 2 months after starting this. Last night I tried on a dress I had in the wardrobe that fit me well 2 years ago and it didn't look great. This morning, after fasting, I found I had put on over a pound since last week. I'm trying very hard not to get discouraged.

Keihira, I hope you feel better soon. I'm really sorry your journey has been so tough but as many others have said, this way has to be much more sustainable for real, lasting weight loss than a strict 7 day plan. When you do lose the weight (and I'm sure you will), it will feel that much better and all this WILL be worth it. Good luck!

1. Why don't you follow your neighbour's diet for a while? It has lots of food, good variety and all you'd have to do is weigh your food everyday (don't you already do that twice a week?).

That's what I am considering now. I am past the rage and I feel totally discouraged.
It feels like admitting defeat.
I just don't seem to have any handle on this eating lark any more.
Why can't I just eat simply, without doubting myself, without wondering whether this will add to my weight or whether this meal has enough of this or too much of that?

Too much info.
Too many details.
Too much confusion.

2. Would you try my new plan for a week or two? It's the Dukan attack...

Thanks TML, I really appreciate your offer, but I cannot see myself doing low-carb.
Just the thought of it is stressing me out!
Not to mention that I live in the middle of nowhere and Zero noodles have barely been noticed outside the capital! I've looked into them on the internet and they also seem to be €...

The idea is to find something which can give me results AND which I can do long-term. Low-carb / no carb, that's just not me.
But thanks. Really.

Keihira, just to make sure we understand each other, I'm not suggesting a low carb/no carb diet. I would never, ever do that! I love carbs, I eat carbs daily, I've been eating all my life and I never gained weight till my thyroid went tits up, LOL!
I am doing this only twice a week and I found things I like eating (smoked trout, chicken kajun with yoghurt sauce, imitation crab salad, salmon, scrambled eggs with cottage cheese) so that it is not a diet, it's just two days eating the protein I like.
After I lose the weight I desire, I will go back to 5:2 which I am convinced that it is the best way to maintain weight.
Regarding the Zero noodles we don't have them here either,inside or outside the capital (pathetic, I know) but an order of 14 packets from H&B costed me a little less than 40 euros which is 5 euros per fast day. Since I accompany them with veggies, they don't add up to the cost, we're talking around 7 euros per fast in total which is 3,5 euros per meal. Not bad...

Keheira, when you take into account that you're on meds for thyroid I think you're doing pretty well. I have been doing 6.1 because although I found the weight loss excellent on 5.2 I was not sleeping well. On my fast day now I eat 3 times as opposed to the once only which I was doing on 5.2, but still around 500cals. The reason being that I don't want to put stress on my thyroid. To compensate for only fasting once a week I try to maintain an 8 to 10 hour eating window and really mix it up, some days having a big breakfast, no lunch, light to normal supper and other days no breakfast and big lunch and light dinner etc. No forbidden foods, but small to medium portions of carbs and protein, lashings of cooked and raw veggies. I have increased the amounts of good fats I eat, especially olive and coconut oil and don't feel hungry (most of the time!) I don't have a sweet tooth either and I think that helps. Looking at your friend's diet it doesn't appeal to me at all I'm afraid and I would not be able to maintain it. I understand your reluctance to go no carb, but please consider going lower carb, just reduced amounts of your favourites but increasing your veggies and increasing your fat intake somewhat. Whichever way you decide to go good luck and I hope you keep posting - and a big thank you for all the free books postings and your help with coconut oil recipes and books.

[carorees]

Hi Keihira

Perhaps we can get to the bottom of this by starting afresh. First, a few questions:

1) What is your TDEE according to the progress tracker?
2) How many cals do you think you are eating on a feed day (approx)
3) How are you splitting up your calorie intake on a fast day?
4) Is your fast day diet low carb?
5) Have you had your thyroid hormone levels checked recently?
6) What is your NEAT level (non-exercise activity...see kencc's thread on this)?
7) How well do you sleep?
8) How stressed are you?


If you have really been maintaining your weight for several weeks you need to assume that your 5 non-fast day intakes plus your 2 fast day intakes represents your weekly TDEE...divide by 7 to get the amount you should be eating on your non-fast days. That's the "a calorie is a calorie" argument. If your TDEE is very low indeed, it suggests some kind of metabolic problem, it could be that your thyroid meds need adjusting. It is possible that too much fasting can affect thyroid hormone levels so I think it best not to do 16:8 and 5:2 at least on the day after a fast. Have a look at marlathome's advice in the thyroid thread...there is some stuff about meal timing, in particular the importance of eating during daylight hours.

If you don't subscribe to the "a calorie is a calorie" school of thought, then it could be that you need to find the correct macronutrient balance for you. If the study that I found showing that weight loss is much better with low carb for people with insulin resistance then it would be worth at least being low carb on fast days. However, high carbohydrate can stimulate thyroid function, which may be the reason behind improved weight loss seen after a high calorie period in some people. Naturally daily overeating will not result in weight loss but the tradition of being good all week and being indulgent at weekends may have some merit!

If you read kencc's thread on NEAT you will know that just being up and about can burn a lot more calories each day than sitting down, so that is one possible area you could look at.

Last, poor sleep and high stress increases cortisol which impedes weight loss, so that is another area to think about.

Apologies if any of this is inappropriate to your situation, but do please let me know the answers to my questions above and we'll see if we can spot anything that can be changed.

Don't despair, I'm sure we can get to the bottom of the situation and get you back on track.

[[[hugs]]]

Perhaps we can get to the bottom of this by starting afresh.

1) What is your TDEE according to the progress tracker? 1818
2) How many cals do you think you are eating on a feed day (approx)? varying 1500-2000
3) How are you splitting up your calorie intake on a fast day? 20/4 = light snack + evening meal
4) Is your fast day diet low carb? yes
5) Have you had your thyroid hormone levels checked recently? yes - I have no thyroid and take 175 μg Levothyrox daily
6) What is your NEAT level (non-exercise activity...see kencc's thread on this)? Non-existant. Though I cycle 10-12km / 40mn most days, once I start work on the computer, I am lost for hours.
7) How well do you sleep? badly, for years - in bouts of 2 to 3 hours
8) How stressed are you? I have always been slightly stressed. It keeps me going. At the moment, I feel very stressed!

Apologies if any of this is inappropriate to your situation, but do please let me know the answers to my questions above and we'll see if we can spot anything that can be changed.

Don't despair, I'm sure we can get to the bottom of the situation and get you back on track.

[[[hugs]]]

Not inappropriate at all.

I very much appreciate everyone's input and I want to apologise for ranting here.

It just seems that no matter what I try - eat more; weigh it; eat less; don't count; skip a meal; don't weigh it; no bread... - I'm not getting anywhere.
I am really struggling and there is no change, no improvement.

To be clear, I don't mind fasting. I don't mind eating less. I've done it for nearly 10 months now.
I don't expect miracles and I'm not being impatient.
I thought that after all this time being careful and food-aware, I'd be a lot closer to my target weight by now. Instead, I'm still 50 lbs heavier than I should be for my health and well-being.

As long as I get a result, I'm happy to carry on.
But it's just not working anymore.

[carorees]

1) What is your TDEE according to the progress tracker? 1818
2) How many cals do you think you are eating on a feed day (approx)? varying 1500-2000
3) How are you splitting up your calorie intake on a fast day? 20/4 = light snack + evening meal
4) Is your fast day diet low carb? yes
5) Have you had your thyroid hormone levels checked recently? yes - I have no thyroid and take 175 μg Levothyrox daily
6) What is your NEAT level (non-exercise activity...see kencc's thread on this)? Non-existant. Though I cycle 10-12km / 40mn most days, once I start work on the computer, I am lost for hours.
7) How well do you sleep? badly, for years - in bouts of 2 to 3 hours
8) How stressed are you? I have always been slightly stressed. It keeps me going. At the moment, I feel very stressed!

OK, so if you assume you are eating an average of 1800 on your feed days and 500 on your fast days, that means your actual TDEE is 1429 cals (1800 x 5 + 1000 = 10000/7 =1429), which probably makes sense considering you are hypothyroid...the levothyroxine does not necessarily make you 'normal' with respect to TDEE. PhilT found a scientific study showing that hypothyroid patients can have TDEEs down to 1200. So I think you would have to aim at eating only 7000 cals per week if you want to lose about 1lb per week. This brings your feed day allowance down to a measly 1200 cal. That is surely unsustainable, as even with 3 fast days a week you could still only have 1375 cals on a feed day. So, we need to think how to increase your TDEE.

I think you should have your T4 and T3 levels checked...obesity can result in poor tissue conversion of T4 to T3 so although you are taking thyroxine it might not be being converted to T3 (the highly active form). See this study that shows how your treatment may not be compensating for your absent thyroid: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21829633
Selenium supplementation may help with improving conversion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22453036

Increasing NEAT if you can would be worthwhile.

Do you take vitamin D supplement?

Do you take a magnesium supplement to help with sleep? It seems to be working for me and for dominic at least.

Thoughts?

Hi Keihira - plateaus are a nuisance, and they seem to get worse the more weight you lose (or the less you had to lose from the outset)!

I thought that while it looked complicated, your neighbour's diet sheet looked really sensible, and has the potential to allow you to eat things you like such as bread without overdoing it. It might be worth trying it for the non-fast days, and making sure you are definitely not eating anything naughty on diet days. It would be tricky at first, but if you use it to try to learn what to expect from the portion sizes, you would not need to weigh everything every time you cook. If the meals looked very fussy (starter, main, accompaniments and pud) you might be able to say "I'll have more veg instead of a pudding" or even increase the rice or bread.

Something else that occurred to me - I always eat a breakfast, even on diet days. I find that breakfast kick-starts my digestion, so I have 200 cals in the morning, and then a small portion of fruit - 50cals of strawberries, for example - at what would normally be lunchtime. Then I aim for around a 200 cal dinner, such as a stir fry where I go mad on the veg!

I mention the breakfast thing because my Mum has had her thyroid removed too, and she says she needs it both to take her Thyroxine with and to wake her up. She doesn't do 5:2, but I thought her experience might help you.

Finally, I switched to sweetener in my tea, because I DO have a sweet tooth, and as an Englishwoman, tea is essential!

I am not losing fast, but my BMI is way lower than yours, so that is probably expectable, and I agree that I think the book is way too optimistic as to expectations of weight loss. 1 pound per fast day? Yeah, right!

... Thoughts?

OK... Thank you Caro.
A lot to consider here.

Starting with the thyroid: I had high hopes the weight would drop after the surgery in 2007, but instead it crept up and I had to push my GP to increase the levothyroxine to the current level, which is based on a bodyweight calculation (can't find the link right now). The last check 6 weeks ago has not raised any questions and the results are on par with previous ones.
I'll look into taking selenium to improve conversion.

NEAT: always a sore point when I get sucked into work. Now that spring (!) has arrived, it should be an incentive to move more rather than stay huddled in front of the laptop.

Vit D: very, very low level, borderline deficiency when checked 6 weeks ago. Been praying for some sun! Will ask my GP for a prescription, as over-the-counter alternatives are almost useless here.

Sleep: will try magnesium. Anything is worth a try to improve the pattern.

Thanks for taking the trouble, Caro. Much appreciated.
At the moment, it feels as if I have wasted my time and put all my energy into a worthless endeavour.
But I know it's not how it is, because I have somehow already managed to shift ⅓ of the weight I need to lose.
I just need to find the trigger to restart the engine.

Thanks again.

This is what has happened to me Caroline, and I have no thyroid probs. I worked my actual TDEE to 1200 and I'm with Keihira that it would be sustainable if only you got some progress. I'm experimenting with 16:8 and two days very low carb with 5 days of restricted carb a la the Harvie/Howells book. Watch this space!!

Keihira, I take magnesium and it helped me with one or two problems, including my irregular heart beat, so it could be worth a look. At least its not expensive!