The FastDay Forum

I am doing 5:2 as a lifestyle change and not as way to lose weight and then quit.

I am particularly interested in the purported benefits of reducing IGF-1 production in my body, particularly now I am on the side of 50 where there are more miles in my rearview mirror than on the road ahead and the risk of cancers is increasing as each year passes. Scary stuff if you think about it .. so don't.

Since viewing Eat, Fast And Live Longer I have been doing a lot of research into IGF-1 and there are some conflicting views as to whether it should be high or should be low. However, from what I have read, I tend to agree with the researchers on the Horizon program that cell duplication set to "Go Go" as a result of lots of IGF-1 is not such a good thing where cancer is concerned.

I found this link, and I do apologise if someone has put it up before.

Although the Doctor is advocating Pritikin or a Vegan diet, in this group of videos he talks about IGF-1 and its effects on cells and its possible links with cancers. I guess it backs up the research highlighted on the Horizon program.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/igf-1-as-one-stop-cancer-shop/

If 5:2 can truly reduce your IGF-1 levels as purported, then this is a great way of life and easily manageable.

Once you've watched that video, you can just click on Next Video for the next in the series about IGF-1.

I hope someone else gets something out of this as well.

Kind regards,

The Fishbaum

[carorees]

Thanks for posting this.

Regarding your question about us not discussing the other benefits of fasting, you'll find there is a lot of discussion in the nerdy section on IGF1, mTOR etc, but we don't generally discuss it much in the main forum because currently it is just theoretical that lowering IGF1 will improve health. There are no studies in humans and it will be a long wait due to our long lifespans. Also the health benefits of losing weight are so huge that it swamps everything else such that spotting any benefit from lower IGF1 is very hard. We have discussed protein and I think the general feeling is that to reduce IGF1, protein must be lowered. There are studies showing that reducing IGF1 in humans needs protein to be reduced but possibly thus supplies only to animal proteins. There may also be a link between activity at mTOR and carbohydrate so another reason to reduce carb consumption.

Thanks, Caroline. I wasn't having a go at anyone or the board or anything and I certainly do not underestimate the benefits of losing weight.

Did you watch the videos??

[carorees]

I didn't think you were "having a go". I just wanted to explain why, despite the book emphasising the other benefits, on the whole we don't mention them so much here.

I didn't have time to watch the videos but I skimmed the transcript. I've mentioned the phenomenon of decreasing IGF1 in older age a few times in the past (probably these posts are now buried in the earlier pages of the nerdy forum). Low IGF1 is associated with frailty so I have counselled caution about fasting in later life.

What I have come to realise is that we ought to expect our dietary needs to change as we age. We clearly need to promote growth factors in childhood and young adulthood, restrain them in middle age and then eat for maximum nutrition in older age, but what happens is that we learn our eating habits when young and then try to continue that way throughout life...hence we end up obese and with too high IGF1 etc. It's astonishing that I've only just realised this!

Fishbaum,

Thanks for posting. I plan to watch the videos later when I have more time. Looking forward to seeing them.

How are you reducing protein levels? I've cut almost all meat out of my diet. I still have a weakness for diary (cream in coffee and cheese!). I often have a few eggs or scrambled egg whites.

I would be interested to learn about how you fast, how often and what sort of diet you are going for.

Thanks,

R

Interesting. Apart from lack of knowledge one of my problems is with the cost / availability of the IGF-1 analysis and for that matter whether its the total or free IGF-1 that matters. I struggle to do things that have no feedback.

Carorees, perhaps I'm being a bit thick tonight (I have a cold so I am a bit fuzzy headed!) I've seen the advice to reduce protein to improve IGF-1 before. However, I also keep seeing advice to reduce carbohydrates on fasting days and ideally also on non fasting days to lose weight. What am I left with to eat if I reduce protein and carbs? Fat?!

Vegies

Redhead,

Veggies! That's what you are left to eat. Lots and lots of veggies. High fiber and lots of nutrition packed in. Also, try eating lots of berries, seeds and nuts. Pretend you are a prehistoric cave woman walking around in the forest, putting things in your basket. You can't catch any rabbits because you're not fast enough. What will you eat?

Oh god, veggies?! Damn it, I was hoping fat was the answer!! Oh well, more vegetables it is. I may catch a rabbit if the wee critters eat my carrots again this year. We have a lot of wild ones about here that eat everything I grow in the back garden!

[carorees]

Well fat is some of the answer. Most low carb lifestyles allow considerably more fat than the current health recommendations.

I share the frustration that we can't focus on the "other" benefits of 5:2, because we don't really know if they exist and we are trying to stick to what is known and measurable. Weight loss is a big win, assuming you need it. But if or when you don't?

Is Dr Greger a genius or a charlatan? I really have no idea. He does seem to be an advocate for a vegan lifestyle. So is Dr Valter Longo (who is the IGF-1 guru from the original Horizon programme) I think...

If you search for IGF and IGF1 you will see there has been quite a lot of discussion here about them (and mTor, FOXO) but in the end somewhat inconclusive.

In the programme Dr M reported that his IGF1 (free/active? or total?) was reduced by his 5:2 regime, but we haven't seen any other evidence that this applies generally, and PaulM here found his IGF1 total was not reduced by 5:2. So I suspect that Dr M's result had more to do with his cutting down on dairy and/or meat and/or protein than on the 5:2 regime he was following - this is a guess since he didn't provide details in the programme of exactly what was in his diet, and has said little about the value of 5:2 for reducing IGF1 since.

There were two 'other' benefits suggested in the programme. One was the anti-dementia benefits demonstrated by Dr Mark P Mattson in mice, and which he believes probably work the same way in people (and is currently researching I believe, so maybe we will hear more in a year or so). And the other was the suggestion from Dr Krista Varady's work that intermittent fasting (ADF in fact in her study) produces improved overall health indicators even if the food intake on the non-fast days was not 'optimal' i.e. a lot of unhealthy food. That's a nice and encouraging finding. But I don't think she found that ADF reduced IGF1 levels (total or free/active) except in a case where dieters took a proprietary 'liquid food' replacement - and I would expect to find (sorry I can't check now) that this was non-dairy.

[carorees]

I'm prey sure I found a paper saying that calorie restriction alone does not reduce IGF1 in humans unlike rodents but that protein needs to be restricted ( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1101&p=7791&hilit=IGF1#p7791) . There was also an ADF study in men slowing reduced mTOR activity in the fasting group compared with the control group (I posted about it about halfway down this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=669&p=14866&hilit=mtor#p14866).

So currently both fasting and protein restriction seem in order!

Hi Rufus and thanks for asking.

I have changed from an extremely high protein, high fat, low fibre diet to a something that two years ago would have seemed beyond imaginable.

I have cut to about thirty to forty grams of protein a day. Yes I still love chicken and .. all meat really but I know I have to go further. It has taken me two years to get here. You can't change the world overnight otherwise nothing changes.

I love soup so I am able to get a lot of my vegies, which I always avoided, down quite easily. I rarely eat beef or pork, maybe a small portion once a week. Chicken is my biggest source of animal protein.

I can't stand tofu so I get my vegetable protein mainly from legumes. I put lentils in most meals. I also like beans and baked beans are great. I like peanut butter as well. Sanitarium, here in Australia, has a peanut butter with nothing added except peanuts. It's a bit sloppy and more towards the bland when you stack it up next to Kraft but over time, you get used to things. I often have wholegrain toast with rice bran spread and peanut butter for breakfast on non fast days.

I love Vietnamese rolls. I will usually buy one at the local Vietnamese bread shop or make one for lunch. It consists of chicken (one day I will leave this out) lettuce, onion, carrot, shallots, fresh coriander, soy sauce and fresh chili.

I actually go to the shops and buy lettuce and broccoli and carrots and capsicums. At night I have a stir fry most nights. I use rice bran oil or spray.

I add Chia seeds to most of my cooking. A tablespoon a day.

In all, I have cut my animal protein by about 80%, replaced a lot of that protein with fish (forgot to mention that earlier).

If I have chicken for dinner at night, I will share about 300grams of chicken breast with my wife so I'm only gettng about 150g.

I don't think I can ever be a vegetarian but I certainly have changed the ratio around to 80% veges now.

And you know what? I was in the supermarket the other day and saw the Mars bars were on special for half price. In the old days I would've grabbed three. I stopped and went...nuh...I'll go get an apple. And I did. Oh...and a few grapes as well.

I always have fruit in the house now for snacks. Just a few pieces a day.

Hope there are a few ideas there. Happy for improvement suggestions. I know I have to cut my salt intake. Small steps though.

Thanks Caroline for reminding me about those threads, and I have now watched (which I don't think I did before ) Dr Greger's videos about IGF1 and its association with meat-based protein (and excessive soya-based protein). Another example of what great info is already here on the forum that I had forgotten about - I guess I haven't been fasting long enough to get the anti-dementia effect.

Thanks Fishbaum for explaining how you have changed your diet, I don't think I am able yet to go as far as you but I can see the logic of it and I (we) have certainly cut down on red meat and am eating more fish and green veg.