The FastDay Forum

*cross-posted from Benefits and Side Effects in the hope of a more scientific answer*

I've noticed a real deterioration in my sleep quality on fast days since I started 5:2 at the beginning of the month.

I've been tracking my sleep for about 4 years on my iPhone, using an app called Sleep Cycle, as I've suffered from intermittent insomnia for more than 30 years. On a good night I'll get 6-6.5 hours and average somewhere between 70% and 85% sleep quality. This includes a reasonable amount of REM sleep.

On the days when I've fasted my sleep quality has plummeted to 50-60% (averaging 54%) and I'm averaging only 4.5-5 hours. Significantly, my sleep on these nights consists of long periods of sleep so deep I'm almost comatose, interspersed with periods of total wakefulness. I'm not getting that vital REM sleep so I'm waking exhausted and headachey.

Ironically, on normal days I'm still getting my REM sleep even when I've had several large glasses of wine in the evening.

Any answers?

Hi Vildekhaya. What worked for me is drinking Ho Shou Wu (powder format) as a 'tea' before bedtime. It tastes surprisingly nice. I drink it in an expresso cup size. There is lots of information about the herb on the internet and whilst it is an energy giving/tonic herb, somehow at night it seems to help with sleep. If you decide to try it, make sure you get it from a reputable supplier eg Lionheart.

That's odd, alcohol should from what I know reduce the amount of REM sleep. I find it surprising an app can accurately identify sleep cycles though, can it be trusted?

Habitual drinkers can from what I've read experience long term withdrawal symptoms affecting their sleep patterns, reducing REM sleep. I have no idea if this might be the case.

A friend of mine at work says he has no choice but to drink every night, otherwise he just can't fall asleep at all. It's stopping him from even considering 5:2. Same thing with a lady friend who can't imagine herself living without her daily dose of wine. Alcohol is tricky, it solves some problems and create others, our relation with changes with time and use. You can live with it but it has its price.

Exercise might make it worse short term, but would improve the situation in 4-6 months. Which is tough, it's difficult to exercise if you suffer from sleep deprivation. Persistence needed.

On nutty advise would be cold showers in the evening, as a cold shower enthusiast I wouldn't be surprised if it helped. I guess you've already heard of avoiding the laptop, TV, reducing lights etc.

From what I've understood it's better to get out of bed if you can't sleep, do something boring. The bed is holy space reserved only for sleeping and, you know. You're not supposed to lay there for a long time trying to fall asleep, you just get stressed up.

Hi Vildekhaya. What worked for me is drinking Ho Shou Wu (powder format) as a 'tea' before bedtime. It tastes surprisingly nice. I drink it in an expresso cup size. There is lots of information about the herb on the internet and whilst it is an energy giving/tonic herb, somehow at night it seems to help with sleep. If you decide to try it, make sure you get it from a reputable supplier eg Lionheart.

Thanks but this is one option I'm going to avoid. I have epilepsy and while it's fairly well controlled and stable right now, my medication isn't stopping my seizures completely. A lot of herbs can trigger seizures, either directly or by interfering with the efficacity of the medication. I had several very bad years until I changed my drug two years and things have improved dramatically for me - I don't want to risk losing that gain and sliding back to where I was earlier. I never take herbal supplements of any sort for this reason. I do sometimes use Clipper's Sleep Easy herbal bedtime tea - I think I may have to do this on fast day bedtimes!

That's odd, alcohol should from what I know reduce the amount of REM sleep. I find it surprising an app can accurately identify sleep cycles though, can it be trusted?

Habitual drinkers can from what I've read experience long term withdrawal symptoms affecting their sleep patterns, reducing REM sleep. I have no idea if this might be the case.

A friend of mine at work says he has no choice but to drink every night, otherwise he just can't fall asleep at all. It's stopping him from even considering 5:2. Same thing with a lady friend who can't imagine herself living without her daily dose of wine. Alcohol is tricky, it solves some problems and create others, our relation with changes with time and use. You can live with it but it has its price.

Exercise might make it worse short term, but would improve the situation in 4-6 months. Which is tough, it's difficult to exercise if you suffer from sleep deprivation. Persistence needed.

On nutty advise would be cold showers in the evening, as a cold shower enthusiast I wouldn't be surprised if it helped. I guess you've already heard of avoiding the laptop, TV, reducing lights etc.

From what I've understood it's better to get out of bed if you can't sleep, do something boring. The bed is holy space reserved only for sleeping and, you know. You're not supposed to lay there for a long time trying to fall asleep, you just get stressed up.

Thanks, Michael - lots of ideas there! Firstly, smartphone apps use the accelerometer in the phone to measure sleep by detecting movement. You sewt the app, stick the phone under the pillow and off you go. The accelerometer is extremely sensitive and can detect even very tiny movements. Because there's a massive body of data on how people move during their different sleep phases, those have been incorporated into how the app functions. Sleep apps are generally very accurate and I've been tracking my sleep long enough to know that what it shows on the graph pretty much correlates to how I actually slept.

I agree on the sleep hygiene stuff - I'm still quite bad at tinkering with my phone at bedtime (email, Twitter, Facebook etc) because I'm self-employed and have that borderline compulsion to keep checking stuff. I don't actually have any trouble dropping off - it's the waking at 2-3am then not being able to fall asleep again for 3 hours or so, or just waking at 4.30-5am and accepting that I definitely won't fall asleep again at that time. I do get up in the middle of the night when the insomnia is bad, or I may stay in the bed and read for a bit (a print book, not Kindle).

While I'm a habitual drinker I don't drink every night. Obviously I'm abstaining on fast days, but I wasn't fasting yesterday and didn't drink, likewise I won't drink tonight (also non-fasting). However, I'm still more likely to have REM sleep on non-drinking nights. So it seems to me it's definitely the fasting that's causing the loss of REM sleep.

I may try the cold shower - or at least a cool one, while the nights are still warmish. I'm fasting Thursday so I'll try this tomorrow night and see how it goes.

When I first started I slept very badly on fast nights. Then I decided to eat all my calories at night and since them my sleep is just fine. I'm not sure if it was the not feeling as hungry at night or just my body adjusting with time to fasting that helped.
So give yourself some time and I'm sure you will find you start to sleep better.

I may try the cold shower - or at least a cool one, while the nights are still warmish. I'm fasting Thursday so I'll try this tomorrow night and see how it goes.

Interesting, I haven't tried it in evenings myself. Be aware it's worst the first time and gets easier quite quickly, I did 10 minutes this morning without shivering or chuttering my teeth. I've found it's best to try to breathe slowly and deeply to avoid the panic reaction, focus on something, like counting the seconds aloud, just relax and let it happen. After one minute you should notice it doesn't really feel that cold anymore. Good luck!

I've not managed a cool shower at bedtime since first posting - basically because I forgot.

Last night, however, I made myself a herbal tea (Clipper Sleep Easy: a mix of valerian, camomile and the other usual suspects!). I fasted yesterday and was pretty tired by 9pm - I've been struggling with tiredness all week because of poor sleeping again and with fasting, plus a very busy working day, I wasn't surprised to be so fatigued that early.

Anyway, my recording shows my sleep improved a lot from having herbal tea at bedtime. As I said above, I've been averaging 54% on fast days - this was a whopping 71%, which is what I can expect to achieve on a normal "good" night, given my insomnia.As you can see in the graph, I have a much better balance of deep sleep and REM sleep - indeed, I remembered I had dreamed when I woke up, although I forgot the content soon after.

Can you share the name of the app that gives you that graph? I have sleep apnea which I think has been improving since I started 5:2 but I'm not sure. That looks like a good tracker. And yet I think my sleep is worse on fast nights too.

[carieoates]

This is a great iPhone app. It orange with an old fashioned alarm clock. You have to calibrate it by turning over in bed so that it can track the right movement. I think it's great but I think it's about £1.59.

[Betsysgr8]

This is a great iPhone app. It orange with an old fashioned alarm clock. You have to calibrate it by turning over in bed so that it can track the right movement. I think it's great but I think it's about £1.59.

but does it have a name? Kinda difficult to just do a search for an 'orange old fashioned alarm clock'

[Debs]

Oh vigilant ones. Read the third paragraph of the first post, it's called 'Sleep Cycle'!!

Yes, it's Sleep Cycle, as I said in my OP!

The app I've been using is SleepBot. It will also wake you within 30 minutes of the alarm you set when it registers you are in a very light sleep.

When I first started I slept very badly on fast nights. Then I decided to eat all my calories at night and since them my sleep is just fine. I'm not sure if it was the not feeling as hungry at night or just my body adjusting with time to fasting that helped.
So give yourself some time and I'm sure you will find you start to sleep better.

Just bumping this because a new sleep issues thread has been started elsewhere and I wanted to return to what you say above.

I tend to eat only in the evenings on fast days, starting with a light snack at around 4-5pm then a main meal around 9pm. Yesterday I had my snack (a rice cake with low-fat cottage cheese) at 6pm then dinner around 8.45pm, which was a piece of poached salmon and a very large salad. I was still peckish after so before 10pm I had a mini Babybel and two slices of very lean smoked ham.

I'm wondering now if that helped my good night's sleep - see 5-2-diet-chat-f6/trouble-sleeping-t8917.html#p106648. I certainly felt satiated with the last big hit of protein. I'm inclined to try that again on Monday, my next fast day, although I need to bear in mind that yesterday I was out during the morning walking and getting lots of fresh air, which probably helped me sleep too.