The FastDay Forum

Given the anti-carb biased nature this forum, and the stick which those poor old carbs get here (could you imagine how you would feel if someone personally gave you that same stick), I have something here which might come to the defence of the humble old carbs. That is because according to this article which I have just discovered, not everyone is suited to a low carb diet and actually do better when their carb intake is increased.

To me, that sounds like a good reason for keeping some carbs in my diet after all.

It does depend on if you are one of those people who do need carbs.

The comments on the articles are interesting. He advocates only whole wheat grains from a particular brand but later says all carbs are good, except those in junk foods. I think the fact that a bowl of (good quality) pasta makes me feel bloated these days means that I'd better avoid that kind of carbs.

His focus is on people who exercise a lot and want to gain muscles and need carbs to sustain their workouts. He does make the point that calorie deficit is necessary for fat loss.

I do find that I can easily gain a lot of water weight in a short period of time if I eat a lot of carbs. However, I also find that if I cut my carb intake back for any length of time, I always end up craving them in the end and my mental health also ends up getting a bit fuzzy with that (i.e. I forget things very easily, and make a lot more basic mistakes than normal when I'm conducting my everyday life).

That means that I will usually end up eating those extra carbs in the end, anyway which might be a sign that I do actually need them. Furthermore, eating a lot of carbs for me also goes hand in hand with eating a lot of salty foods and so, it could be the salt content rather than the increase in carbs which actually causes those spikes in my weight, and the water retention.

It could be the lack of salt that causes the fuzzy headedness not the lack of carbs. Especially if you drink a lot of water and exercise too. You could well be losing needed salts in sweat and through flushing out with the water.

I would like to know about the fatigue which comes about with low carb as I have been trying for low carb but have hit the wall of fatigue

It could be the lack of salt that causes the fuzzy headedness not the lack of carbs. Especially if you drink a lot of water and exercise too. You could well be losing needed salts in sweat and through flushing out with the water.

I have tried just eating the salty things without a deliberate increase in carbs (although there could have been some extra carbs in the cashews that I ate), but that caused me to gain a lot of water weight which has now taken two days to get rid of. I do exercise a lot, but yesterday was a rest day although I did a spin class this morning. Having lost that water weight which I gained (which actually came from eating those salted nuts a few days ago, and those salted cashews (which I later learned, are not actually nuts)), I can now report that I have ended up losing an extra 0.4kg of water weight over and above that which I gained by eating those salted things that I have just mentioned. That now takes my weight back to below 70kg, and also to below 11 stone (when reported to the nearest pound, my weight this morning was exactly 11 stone, but is actually 10 stone 13.9 pounds when reported to the nearest 0.1 pounds).

I can also see the bit about drinking a lot of water because I do tend to drink a lot of water with exercise, and it is said that the water content of the body goes down as you drink more water, whereas not drinking enough water is more likely to lead to water retention. That might help to explain why I have had a couple of big weight losses this week with today's total weight loss amounting to 0.9kg which can't be caused solely by a reduction in my body fat content, as I can't have built up a big enough calorie deficit for that. Furthermore, those weight losses add up the longer that I stick to s reduced carb intake, and actually become bigger over time with the same calorie intake. It is then only after an increase in my calorie intake, that the resulting weight losses either disappear or become a bit smaller.

I like that article you referenced @johncs2013 - quite balanced I thought. But please remember everyone, that not all carbs are created equal! Their glycemic index is crucial! And not always intuitive e.g. so-called "complex carbs" (an outmoded description) can be either high GI or low GI, like potatoes are high and pasta is low (but also complicated by the fact that a lot of people are wheat-intolerant). in the USA, it's a concept that's been slow to infiltrate, since they didn't discover it (the Canadians and the Aussies did!), thus there has been a lot of inertia. If you want to read more, there's any of Prof Jennie Brand-Miller's books, or go to www.glycemicindex.com - also a good monthly blog available on that site.

[carorees]

As we're in the 5:2 lab, I'll give my current understanding of the metabolic role or otherwise of carbs.

As well as the importance of GI as jools says, we need to look at why some people might do better by cutting carbs.

There have been some studies showing that people with insulin resistance (i.e., high circulating insulin levels due to resistance of the body to respond to insulin) do better on a low carb diet in terms of weight loss. As obesity is associated with insulin resistance (and the other markers of metabolic syndrome, such as hypertension and high cholesterol), it is likely that if you are obese and/or have hypertension or have high fasting glucose you will have insulin resistance, so keeping carbs under control is likely to be helpful.

Obesity is also associated with metabolic inflexibility in which the body is reluctant to swap from sugar burning to fat burning. I believe that one symptom of metabolic inflexibility is getting headaches, brain fog and lethargy during fasting.

High insulin levels as seen in insulin resistance prevent the body from burning fat as insulin is the hormone that stores fat.

Putting all the above together, my theory is that for people who are obese or overweight or have other characteristics of metabolic syndrome or experience symptoms of metabolic inflexibility, controlling carbs will likely be helpful as this helps keep insulin levels down (as does fasting).

How low should you keep the carbs then? If you have diabetes or pre-diabetes, probably pretty low (e.g., under 50g per day), if not you may get away with up to 150g per day. As fasting is also low carbing in the sense that insulin levels fall, then there may be an interaction here so that daily 16:8 may allow higher carbs because the exposure is time limited...that would need experimenting.

Last, when looking at the science studies it's important to see how they define low carb/high carb etc as it's v variable and some so called low carb diets in studies have not been low in carbs at all. Also you need to check what population was studied: obese/normal weight, diabetic/non-diabetic, metabolic syndrome/metabolically healthy, as the results will depend on the type of people studied.

As most people following standard health guidelines will be eating at least 250g of carbs a day (=1000 cal = 50% of energy intake) a reduction to 150g would make a big difference without having to give up carbs completely.

However, that's all speaking generally...you have to work out how carbs affect you personally through self experimentation. If you choose to stick with a high carb approach, the science says you need to go low fat as well...carbs + fat are the worst mix as it maximises fat storage...the carbs are burnt for fuel, any left over are turned to fat and the fat in the diet goes straight to storage.

I do have supporting references for all this but need to be at my desk to access them and post them here...ask me if you want links to the relevant studies and science background.

Dr John Briffa has a pointer to the NHS explanation as to why we should all eat carbs on his website, it is well worth reading his comments, the NHS dieticians analysis and the comments at the end of the NHS summary - our own PhilT has a good pop at them and loads of people have rated the article 'one star'. I think Carorees will enjoy this!

Dr John Briffa has a pointer to the NHS explanation as to why we should all eat carbs on his website, it is well worth reading his comments, the NHS dieticians analysis and the comments at the end of the NHS summary - our own PhilT has a good pop at them and loads of people have rated the article 'one star'. I think Carorees will enjoy this!

Is there a link to this Pete please?

Interesting article and discussion, thank you for sharing

Like many people have said, it's what works for you and your body. It was instilled me for the longest time that carbs are bad (remember the Rosemary Conley diet?) so I spent the better part of the past 15 years trying to eat low carb, I say trying because I failed miserably and my weight crept up slowly but surely.

In the past year, I've taken a more relaxed approach to carbs, they're not forbidden just moderated, I try and listen to my body - yes Im still scared of adding carbs but I embrace them more fully so I eat them in moderation when my body tells me it needs them and I've been losing weight

The lethargy and bloated feeling I used to get with carbs has diminished significantly; I think that's because I'm not trying to deny myself yet overindulge in the process, I have a more measured approach so I'm not super loaded with carbs

As I said, interesting article indeed; study enough people with varied basal disease status and eating habits and you will get varied results. The bottom line, I believe something that most folks agree on, is that (net) calorie deficit is key in weight loss

Thanks Pete. Nice to see Phil is still out there carrying the low carb banner!

I'm with Caroline on it having to be personal choice and experimentation. I am very insulin resistant and low carb has been the only way I have ever lost weight. I also find that its the only way I can shift the exhaustion, brain fog and other cognitive problems that come with FMS. The whole weight loss business would be much easier if we all responded to the same things but we don't, and until people accept that what works for one isn't necessarily the whole answer for everyone then the arguments will no doubt continue.

I have had to go down the low-carb and high fat route, plus IF and 16:8..it was a bit scary at first because the opposite had been instilled into me (high-carb & low fat), but that had never worked for me EVER!
I don't get hungry eating this way and I enjoy my fast days. I eat a lot more green veg and salad as a result, neither of which are high carb foods, but I don't overdo it. I also eat a small portion of berries every day now. I feel pretty good and have far more energy.
Low carb is the way for me, but it's balanced with fat, which for some is a scary proposition. I have read enough on the subject of how fat and carbs are metabolised in the body to be no longer afraid of eating fat. What I avoid like the plague now is refined carbs mixed with fats. That's a no,no.
This isn't everyone's 'cup of tea' but it works for me.

I swapped to lower-carb and higher fat too Auriga... I lost my weight doing low-carb, low-fat, 5:2 and counting calories but when autumn hit I got a BIG dose of Autumn Feed Syndrome - carb cravings and was hungry ALL the time. So I went lower carb and re-introduced fat and that's keeping my hunger pangs at bay now...

Agree with everyone's comments on here.... carbs ARE the enemy, especially when mixed with fat and/or sugar our bodies just don't need them in the same way that we NEED fat and protein and people ARE addicted to carbs... the same way they get addicted to sugar, nicotine and alcohol.... all the other things we don't need (but make us feel good!!!) Small amounts of complex carbs are fine, as long as you can monitor your intake but high intake of refined carbs really do you no good at all.... Bread for example.... tastes great, but even better when dolloped with butter (refined carbs + fat = BAD!) It's how you mix it all up that you need to be mindful of...... the humble jacket potato.... yes, lots of carbs but with the skin, a good source of fibre too.... but do we eat it "naked"? Nope.... butter and probably cheese too..... hmmmm.... not such a great combo now.....

Carbs need water to be processed so you will always initially weigh more than the amount of carbs you have eaten as your body stores the extra fluid to deal with them.