The FastDay Forum

[Debs]

Hi All,

I emailed Amanda Salis re her brief comment on the 5:2 on a Radio National the other day and got a very nice response. It appears she does see this website!
I have attached a couple of items from her, first is the link for her kindle books and the second are some points she made on 5:2 and the time taken to start fat burning.

There is definitely something in the 5:2 diet and intermittent energy restriction. I read Dr Mosley's book and it's very good. For your forum readers who mentioned the high price of my paper back books, they are both available through Kindle for about $10 each (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... bury-salis).

Please find following information from my slide on the 5:2 diet:

The 5:2 Diet: a good start, could be improved:
›Why semi-fast for only 1-2 days when the benefits for appetite suppression kick in only after about 4 days ?
›Why take a break from semi-fasting for only 5 days when it can take up to 1 month or more to deactivate the Famine Reaction ?
›Why choose your own food when doing so makes it hard to get enough protein ( + other nutrients ) to suppress appetite and prevent loss of lean body mass (e.g. muscle ) ?
›Our version : We are testing 2-4 weeks on the diet, 2-4 weeks ‘off the diet’, using meal replacement formulas.
You may also be interested in hearing the audio for this talk, which can be found at:

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/21st-century/diets.php

I am sure this will provoke some debate!

[Debs]

Further to this, I was interested in her comments re VLCDs, viz: It will take 3-4 days to burn through your body's stored glycogen, then you will start producing ketones to fuel your brain. It's at that point that people with excess weight to lose experience a relief from hunger that is well satisfied with the Optifast VLCD plan. It is the only diet that needs to be done 'all or nothing', because if your carb intake is too high (e.g. Because you eat fruit or more veggies or something), you stop producing ketones and the hunger suppression is lost.

Debs. I'm just listening to the lecture now but to cut to the chase, I wanted to ask if she is advocating only fasting over an extended period, eg 2-4 weeks and then 2-4 weeks off.

[Debs]

Yes, interesting isn't it? So many different messages to absorb. Obviously early days with it all.

ok thanks. I'm still ploughing through the talk but its long and I need to go out! And apology to those who have been already talking about her on other threads (I really do need to keep up). My initial reaction is that I'm a bit skeptical if I'm honest. I have done VLCD using homeopathic hcg as a support which basically does around 21-40 odd days restricted and then a break when normal but low carb eating may resume to stay ketogenic but you are not allowed to lose any more weight during that period Then you cycle back again. It really does works (lowest adult weight I have ever been), but once you come off it, the weight comes right back on. I also found it extremely antisocial, hard to exercise effectively and you don't lose weight any faster than this method. I have only been on this WOE since August and I prefer so far this because I can manage my business trips and social life more easily! There is still 20 mins to run on the talk so if I have missed the punchline and misunderstood, please tell me!

[carorees]

Please find following information from my slide on the 5:2 diet:

The 5:2 Diet: a good start, could be improved:
›Why semi-fast for only 1-2 days when the benefits for appetite suppression kick in only after about 4 days ?
›Why take a break from semi-fasting for only 5 days when it can take up to 1 month or more to deactivate the Famine Reaction ?
›Why choose your own food when doing so makes it hard to get enough protein ( + other nutrients ) to suppress appetite and prevent loss of lean body mass (e.g. muscle ) ?
›Our version : We are testing 2-4 weeks on the diet, 2-4 weeks ‘off the diet’, using meal replacement formulas.
You may also be interested in hearing the audio for this talk, which can be found at:

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/21st-century/diets.php

I had a think about her responses and these are my comments:
1)The experience of forum members shows that appetite suppression kicks in after a single day of fasting...where does she get her information about appetite suppression taking 4 days?
2)Does it always take a month to deactivate the famine reaction or does the time taken depend on the duration of the 'famine'? Could fasting for one day at a time followed by a feast prevent the famine reaction from ever happening? What studies support this claim?
3) No loss of muscle mass beyond that expected from the decrease in weight has been seen in the studies of ADF and it seems also to be the case with 5:2. Increasing protein, while suppressing appetite, increases IGF-1 and activates mTOR thereby undoing the good of fasting and undermining some of the health benefits. As we only need 0.8g of protein for each kg of lean body mass, for most women a fast-day intake of 50g protein should be sufficient to supply all our protein needs, for men it is likely to be about 60g. That is not too hard to achieve. A 150g of chicken breast for example gets you almost there and the veggies will do the rest. Even if you don't hit the 50g mark, scientific study has shown that during the first 24 hours of complete fasting, the protein needed by the body comes from the intestine and is soon replaced one normal eating resumes, so there will still be no problem with loss of muscle mass. People forget that as they lose weight their muscles do not have to be so big to move them around and so will naturally reduce in size however much protein they eat unless they do specific exercises to maintain them. But if they are not needed, why try to keep them?
4) Meal replacement formulas = money making scheme! The 5 days of normal eating supply all our nutritional requirements so there is no need to scare people into thinking they will suffer terribly if two days a week they don't get quite enough of certain minerals and vitamins etc.

I would be interested to know her response!

Think you're right about making it into a money making scheme by suggesting that we are ill equipped to know how to eat properly and should rely on some magic formulaic foods supplied commercially - even on the fast day, or particularly on fast days, I eat healthy - usually salmon, herring or similar and a huge portion of mixed veggies or salad. My diet is healthier overall now after a few months of 5.2 than it was for years and I suspect most of us who have been doing this for a while have noticed similar improvements.

[Betsysgr8]

I wasn't impressed when she mentioned the 'meal replacement formula' (probably full of artificial flavors/colors and like a slimfast shake yuck!). Sure people will probably lose weight, maybe even a great deal of weight but supplements don't teach proper balance of meals. I found that from the beginning of 5:2 I have been learning portion control, sometimes a bit of trial and error when too late you realize that no, you can't eat a foot-long subway sandwich anymore or that you don't want or can't eat a whole pizza, lol. But you do learn! And it doesn't cost you anything!

I suppose that there will always be people that thrive on having detailed instructions with regards to eating, what, when, how much and always the "no, I can't have that, I'm on a diet" bleugh!

Why do people go and have to spoil it by pushing products? If there is anything that sends me running toward the food cupboard, it's a protein shake. I need REAL food and I'm saving money with this WOE. **end of rant**