The FastDay Forum

[carorees]

Did anyone spot this article on the BBC? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21965092
Curious!

Edited to add: also reported by New Scientist: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... ypass.html

This is really interesting. It seems too simple to be true, but if it is, the possibilities for future treatments for obesity, are really exciting.

A very interesting article, reminds me of when they discovered that stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria so these seems imminently possible.

I can see all the "weight loss probiotic" products coming down the line, at least until they hit the EU's evidence and labelling requirements.

Can't see the full article referenced by the BBC, but here's a review paper that shows an association between obesity and gut bacteria types
http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/pdf/1 ... fmb.11.142

If gut bacteria can cause weight loss, as opposed to being associated with it, then the theory of "a calorie is a calorie" goes out the window surely ?

I can see how some bacteria might be able to digest fibre and liberate calories that would otherwise go down the pan, but that would increase obesity. A crop of less efficient digesters would conversely leave more calories in stools.

Edit to add - another review (with nice diagrams) http://ncp.sagepub.com/content/27/2/201.full

Yes, very interesting, but what does this indicate? -

"There was little change in micro-organisms present in the mice who had had sham operations, even though the group on the low-calorie diet lost just as much weight as the mice who had had the bypass surgery."

I thought point of having bariatric surgery was that you were able to eat less, thereby reducing calories significantly leading to weight loss. Are they saying that the resultant weight loss is down to a change in gut flora and not calorie restriction alone? If that's the case they are making, how come the mice who didn't have bypass surgery lost just as much weight - isn't that significant? I realise bacteria transplant led to mice who hadn't had surgery to lose weight, but I wonder if calorie restriction itself leads to changes in gut flora aiding weight loss, or maybe even the type of calories ingested, i.e. carbs, fat, protein etc?

Raises more questions than it answers but very thought provoking.

What about this -
Swapping gut bacteria isn't unprecedented as a treatment. In 2010, an 89-year-old woman with a potentially fatal infection received what is known as a faecal transplant from her son

!!!

Phil, I 'read'' the full article
It's a good job we've got boffins like you and Caroline, to translate for us.

I meant the original study scientific paper, rather than the journalistic mangling of it

The abstract says "Transfer of the gut microbiota from RYGB-treated mice to nonoperated, germ-free mice resulted in weight loss and decreased fat mass in the recipient animals relative to recipients of microbiota induced by sham surgery, potentially due to altered microbial production of short-chain fatty acids."

Mariathome is right that calorie restriction itself and changes of diet composition also change the gut flora, whether the gut flora then have an independent weight loss effect is yet to become clear.

The nearest thing I've seen to an explanation involves making more CLA, in which case a CLA supplement should mimic the effect.

The nearest thing I've seen to an explanation involves making more CLA, in which case a CLA supplement should mimic the effect.

Has anyone tried taking CLA as a supplement and if so, did it help?
Read 1 report on it, that said although it reduced body fat, it made the liver fatty! Any thoughts on this?

The Times ran this story too - sorry, can't offer a link as I read the hard copy. The research does offer a possible explanation as to why people who have had bariatric surgery say they no longer WANT to overeat (a fact which has always puzzled me if the hypothalamus alone controls appetite).

Has anyone tried taking CLA as a supplement and if so, did it help? Read 1 report on it, that said although it reduced body fat, it made the liver fatty! Any thoughts on this?

I took Evening Primrose Oil capsules for a while, with no specific effect that I could tell.

A meta-analysis of several trials found evidence of a small benefit http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21990002

A 3 month trial of Chinese subjects found statistically significant improvements in BMI, waist, etc using CLA http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22261578

There are two reports (both from Portugal) of serious liver problems associated with taking CLA http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22345346 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18720003 Neither paper describes the source of CLA used or the dose level so it may just be coincidence that both were in the same country.

The Times ran this story too - sorry, can't offer a link as I read the hard copy. The research does offer a possible explanation as to why people who have had bariatric surgery say they no longer WANT to overeat (a fact which has always puzzled me if the hypothalamus alone controls appetite).

But that's not true of all people who have bariatric surgery - I have a friend who underwent gastric bypass and she continued to crave and eat the same crap she ate prior to surgery - she even liquidised it - despite it making her feel ill! I've read other similar stories, so there's clearly something else going on as well - for instance, the mind/body connection which is inextricably linked to why we overeat in the first place and addiction to certain foods/drinks which persists beyond surgery. Perhaps it's the case that people who have bariatric surgery don't want to eat the same volume of food as before simply because they can't. This, then, in the majority of cases would lead to calorie reduction and a change in gut flora reported in the trial. So, is it the surgery per se or the calorie reduction that's the catalyst for improvement in gut bacteria?

The hypothalamus is a mediator of endocrine feedback loops regulating homeostasis - if any part of the endocrine system malfunctions - e.g. thyroid disease - then the whole finely balanced system is compromised, leading to further hormonal malfunction - e.g. insulin sensitivity, diabetes etc. I wonder what happens to this mechanism following bariatric surgery and whether it can be halted or reversed?

This is research on the role of gut flora and weight loss:

http://www.dovepress.com/comparison-wit ... ticle-DMSO

"A diet of grain-free whole foods with carbohydrate from cellular tubers, leaves, and fruits may produce a gastrointestinal microbiota consistent with our evolutionary condition, potentially explaining the exceptional macronutrient-independent metabolic health of non-Westernized populations, and the apparent efficacy of the modern "Paleolithic" diet on satiety and metabolism."

But that's not true of all people who have bariatric surgery

No, indeed. But it seems to be true of many people, although logic and common sense suggest that your friend's response "should" be the norm - bariatric surgery in itself "should not" make any difference to the desire to eat specific quantities of food (only to the ability to ingest them)! Hence my interest in whether gut bacteria might prove to be a/the causal factor.

Many thanks for posting the link to the abstract - fascinating stuff!

bariatric surgery in itself "should not" make any difference to the desire to eat specific quantities of food

It should moderate the appetite as ghrelin levels have been found to significantly reduce as a consequence of surgery - http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijpep/2010/217267/

Won't help the compulsive eaters though.