The FastDay Forum

Yes but if all the fat people had to do was to follow a healthy eating program/ diet and do some exercise we'd all be thin, right?

Right. That's all it takes. It's just a simple 'energy in vs. energy out' equation.

I have been dieting or trying to diet all my life and I am at my fattest weight ever. When I follow a conventional diet I either a) find it impossible to follow e.g. Low carb eating or b) am hungry all the time.

Exactly. Thin people are hungry sometimes. That's natural; it's not natural to have to disallow an entire food group (carbs), or to always be satiated or over-full. That's how thin people are thin.

Look at the research into ghrelin and PPY. the advice wee have been given all these years about diet is wrong.

I don't know what they are; I have never read anything about dieting, ever, until the 5:2 book. The concept of counting calories is entirely new to me.

[carorees]

My OH is never hungry, eats hugely, plenty of cake, wine, butter, jam, cheese etc. Never puts on weight. His TDEE is clearly very high despite his size. Thin people are often thin because their TDEE is high not just because they may go hungry sometimes.

Ghrelin is a hormone which signals hunger. It increases as time goes on after eating. It also increases as weight is lost creating a greater drive to eat. hence the permanent hunger.

There is plenty on this in the 5:2 labs section. Look at the science about leptin, ghrelin, changes in REE, NEAT and TDEE with weightloss and the set point concepts.

While the equation of calories in vs calories out seems simple, calculating TDEE is not so straightforward. If you have an underactive thyroid your TDEE will be lower than expected for your size. Thyroid function can vary within the normal range so that can influence the tendency to gain weight.

What frustrates me is how people like the two personal trainers who were on the show, who have probably always been thin, attribute their thiness to their behaviour, inate will power, personality, eating habits and exercise, when in reality they have just won the genetic lottery, and probably wouldn't gain weight even if they didn't eat 'healthy' and 'organic'.

I refuse to take dietary advice from anyone - dietician, PT, doctor, whoever - who has never been overweight themselves or had to lose weight. THEY. DON'T. GET. IT.

I think the program was good, and that there is a big miscinception in society that there exists a causal link between fat and ill-health. Doctors and public health workers want to treat it like they did smoking - stop smoking, stop lung cancer. There was strong evidence for a cause link between smoking and cancer. At best there is a moderate correlation between fat and ill health.

I.e. being overweight is a VASTLY different issue and needs to be approached differently. For one, the link between being overweight and disease isn't anywhere near as clear cut as the link between smoking and say lung cancer. In the absence of smoking, lung cancer is rare. In the absence of being overweight? Ill health is still a common occurence!

I think it is a spurious result to say that being fat causes disease, therefore losing fat will automatically reduce disease and therefore reduce the hospital burden. Why is it not considered that there is something else, something that causes ill health, of which fat is just ANOTHER symptom! Trying to cure the disease by eliminating a symptom would like being try to cure brain cancer by giving a patient panadol for their headache. It does nothing about the CAUSE.

Healthy eating - e.g. less refined food, no sugar, no trans fats etc - may well be the path to reduced disease, but the emphasis is all wrong. The emphasis should be on the healthy behaviours themselves - the eating of healthy foods is the achievement itself, rather than just as a means to weight loss.

Here in the US, of course, I have not seen the programs you refer to (don't have TV, anyway).

But on the general theme of the smugness of thin people who think that personal virtues of one kind or another are the reason they are thin: (I was probably guilty of this myself at one time) from the vantage point of 72 years of age, I can see the trajectory of my own weight saga.

Teen age through mid thirties--thin. Forties and fifties--up to size 12. Sixties--up to size 14, in spite of exercise and healthy eating. Seventies--not happy with double chin and pot belly.

Comes the 5:2 plan--lost 9 pounds in 6 weeks and yesterday wore, comfortably, size 12 trousers that had been too tight to wear for 5 years. Weight goal only 1 pound away and waist size goal only 3/4 inch away.

Thank you, Dr. Mosley, 5:2 forum, and 5:2 plan for making it easy and for relieving the guilty feelings. Those smug people may change their tunes when they get to be my age.

Meanwhile, dear friends, Illegitimi non carborundum. (Hope this gets past the moderators )

Interesting topic this one. Obviously being overweight can up the risk of getting certain diseases. But we also know that there are thin people with visceral fat around their internal organs because they eat rubbish and dont exercise. Also there are larger people who eat well and exercise and their fat is more external so not as damaging.
We are all individuals and so all different.

Theres good facebook comments on it in a few facebook posts. scroll down to Tuesday

http://www.facebook.com/InsightSBS?fref=ts

lucy1984 - I didn't know where to start in my reply, after reading all that you had outlined.

You wrote: "I think it is a spurious result to say that being fat causes disease, therefore losing fat will automatically reduce disease and therefore reduce the hospital burden."

It has been proved that being overweight does increase our chances of becoming unwell.

There has been a huge increase in the number of people with type-2 diabetes, heart disease etc.

Obese children are showing signs of heart disease, and even developing diabetes at a very young age.

How do you know that personal trainers have never had weight problems? I do a lot of sport, but, three years ago, weighed 15 kgs more than I do now, and struggled to run more than a few yards.

Even when overweight people are advised as to what healthy foods would be best for them, they often still indulge in all the wrong foods as well.

Lastly, in countries where food is scarce, how many overweight people do you see?

If you are keeping an eye on the research that is continually coming out, it is obvious that it is NOT as simple as energy in, energy out. Our bodies, brains and endocrine systems are more complex than that.

For example, they have just come out with information that babies born caesarian gain more weight in the first 6 months than babies that go through the birth canal. This holds true even when they control for all other factors including breast feeding. They question whether babies that go through the birth canal may be exposed to something in the birth canal that changes the equation. So what's up with that? It kind of puts a crimp in the "exercise and willpower, period" argument.

Then there are genes and the way the environment interacts with them to either express or repress their action. We are just now beginning to understand some of this.

Does that mean that eating less and differently while exercising more is not important? Absolutely not. Is that the only thing that works for everyone? I don't think so.

So, how about just saying something like, "This is what works for me. Have you tried it? It might work for you."

bordergirl - a low-carb diet works for most people, even with no exercise. So, if I said to someone: "Try this. It may work for you", the chances are that they wouldn't want to give up the foods which would sabotage their weightloss, on that particular way of eating.

[carorees]

A propos the question of how doctors treat fat people and the link between obesity and disease, this is an interesting article (with references): http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012 ... r-doctors/

The debate here seems to be polarising into the "its a simple question of calories in vs calories out" brigade versus the "some people are unlucky to have a tendency to become overweight" group. It is, of course, self-evident that if you reduce calories enough you will lose weight, otherwise hunger strikers and famine victims would never die, but this does not mean that some people are not more prone to put on weight than others. Like most things, the truth is that weight loss is a bit more complicated than it might appear.

If you are keeping an eye on the research that is continually coming out, it is obvious that it is NOT as simple as energy in, energy out. Our bodies, brains and endocrine systems are more complex than that.

For example, they have just come out with information that babies born caesarian gain more weight in the first 6 months than babies that go through the birth canal. This holds true even when they control for all other factors including breast feeding. They question whether babies that go through the birth canal may be exposed to something in the birth canal that changes the equation. So what's up with that? It kind of puts a crimp in the "exercise and willpower, period" argument.

Then there are genes and the way the environment interacts with them to either express or repress their action. We are just now beginning to understand some of this.

Does that mean that eating less and differently while exercising more is not important? Absolutely not. Is that the only thing that works for everyone? I don't think so.

So, how about just saying something like, "This is what works for me. Have you tried it? It might work for you."

Hmm my children were both born by caesarian section and both of them were on the lowest percentile in weight pretty much have been all through their childhood they are now 12 and 10. My 12 year old daughter actually gets excited if the scales go up , she only weighs about 33 kg's. So that thought doesn't ring true for at least my own children.

Here in the US, of course, I have not seen the programs you refer to (don't have TV, anyway).

Thank you, Dr. Mosley, 5:2 forum, and 5:2 plan for making it easy and for relieving the guilty feelings. Those smug people may change their tunes when they get to be my age.

I think this video is accessible to America. http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/w ... t-Fighters

Great Australian forum style program.. i think quite unique in the worlds... Hats off to SBS television downunder!

yes thank you 5:2.. i share your sentiments here.. never worried about any kind of dieting till this program. i actually havent bought any book or recipe book for that matter. just used initial tv program, net references and this forum. (sorry Michael)

Marybeth - I don't see your point about thin people being smug. It can take a lot of hard work and determination for us to fight weight gains.

I weigh two stones less than I did in my twenties, and I am in my late fifties now.

Age has nothing to do with anything.

There is often an element of resentment for those of us who make huge efforts to keep in good shape.

Re: Insight SBS tonight

Postby gillymary » 28 May 2013, 13:10

"I was busy watching the qanda with Bill Gates.".......................

WOW, I'm well impressed gillymary, you and Bill Gates watch television together?!!!


Ballerina x

wow! what a lot of 'soap boxes'. Still getting on and off them should help with the weight loss.