The FastDay Forum

Morning IF-ers,

I've seen this phrase bounce around for the last week or so and I may be being very ditzy but what on earth is a refeed?

Thank you for your patience!!

Hi @kelkelkelster out of desperation I tried this a couple of weeks ago because since Christmas I've been losing+ gaining the same kg or so of weight.
You eat healthy foods for a few days going over your TDEE just in the hope of confusing your body into releasing the fat store I did it with trepidation because I've still got a very long way to go and my plan was to do it for one week but I only managed 4 full days of all 3 meals a day = I lost 950grams then last week 400 grams lost so this Fri will be the test to see if I'm any where nearer to my early Dec lowest.

Thanks @Sue.Q

So - you spend a few days overeating? And then the next week you're back to normal?

Well done on your success with it though! Good luck for Friday

Thanks @kelkelkelsterThere is a link somewhere if I find it I'll bump the topic for you because I'm not at all tecky in anyway at all and can't do actual links.

[Debs]

Hi there,
The idea is to give your body a break and fool it into thinking it doesn't have to worry about not getting enough to eat, and then hopefully that kickstarts the weight loss again. I did it last week at home, although I have to say it was far from healthy refeed! I am back fasting this week to see if it has helped.

[carieoates]

Which brings me to a question which has been buzzing around my head.. If you start on 5.2 then lose a good lot of weight (some of which being water). But then stall, after a refeed do you then still have water to lose or is it only at the beginning?

@Debs That's why I only managed 4 days because mine weren't healthy days at all plus I deliberately upped my carbs back to what I was doing pre 4:3 and I felt absolutely awful but I'm still dubious because I'm not back to my lowest weight in early Dec. Sue

@carieoates I've just bumped the topic that gave me the idea to try Sue

Thank you girls,

so @Debs, does that mean you don't fast for a week? I'm guessing it would only work once you've reached the dreaded plateau, which I'm assuming is your body's way of saying it's used to the smaller amount of calories?

Sorry for all the questions, you lot are just better than google!

[carorees]

Which brings me to a question which has been buzzing around my head.. If you start on 5.2 then lose a good lot of weight (some of which being water). But then stall, after a refeed do you then still have water to lose or is it only at the beginning?

Whenever you replenish your glycogen stores you will take up water (because glycogen is one part glucose to four parts water), then when you use up the glycogen by not eating carbs (whether by low carb eating or fasting) the water is released. This is why we get such big swings in weight. When you first start a diet your glycogen stores are full but they get used as you're not eating enough carbs to keep them full and you lose water. Then a period of overeating will fill up the glycogen store and increase your body water. Returning to the diet takes in loss of water again.

TL,DR: yes.

[Debs]

Yes, Sue.Q, I too felt a bit rubbish, bloated and horrible!!! A salutary reminder of the 'power' of carbs.
I am measuring my carb intake now to see how high it is.

I am curious about whether there is any scientific evidence for refeeding to get over a plateau or generally boost metabolism. I've been reading around a lot about metabolic changes (in TDEE, appetite hormones, etc.) that occur upon weight loss--the things that lead to plateaus and/or difficulty with maintenance after reaching goal. Everything I've seen suggests that this will go on for a long time after losing 10% of body weight--even after 6 months, hormone levels don't recover to pre-weight loss levels, for example. Can any one point me to a study that shows referring works? I've tried to look through Amanda Sainsbury's stuff, but haven't found anything yet.

[carieoates]

Which brings me to a question which has been buzzing around my head.. If you start on 5.2 then lose a good lot of weight (some of which being water). But then stall, after a refeed do you then still have water to lose or is it only at the beginning?

Whenever you replenish your glycogen stores you will take up water (because glycogen is one part glucose to four parts water), then when you use up the glycogen by not eating carbs (whether by low carb eating or fasting) the water is released. This is why we get such big swings in weight. When you first start a diet your glycogen stores are full but they get used as you're not eating enough carbs to keep them full and you lose water. Then a period of overeating will fill up the glycogen store and increase your body water. Returning to the diet takes in loss of water again.

TL,DR: yes.

Thanks Caroline.

I am curious about whether there is any scientific evidence for refeeding to get over a plateau or generally boost metabolism. I've been reading around a lot about metabolic changes (in TDEE, appetite hormones, etc.) that occur upon weight loss--the things that lead to plateaus and/or difficulty with maintenance after reaching goal. Everything I've seen suggests that this will go on for a long time after losing 10% of body weight--even after 6 months, hormone levels don't recover to pre-weight loss levels, for example. Can any one point me to a study that shows referring works? I've tried to look through Amanda Sainsbury's stuff, but haven't found anything yet.

I'd be interested in this. As I've lost a good % of BW and am still body comp reformatting due to the weightlifting/conditioning. I'm trying to balance all the factors for me and it's really difficult to tell what's going on.

the concept of @overeatingis really off-putting i think to a lot of people we are so used to the benefits of staying within TDEE and within 1/4 of TDEE on fast days that unless there is good evidence i would be scared to try

also if many of us overate at Christmas / New Year then January should have resulted in a major dive in weight and that didn't happen or not for me anyway. It has taken me a good month and half to get back to where i was i think..

[carorees]

I am curious about whether there is any scientific evidence for refeeding to get over a plateau or generally boost metabolism. I've been reading around a lot about metabolic changes (in TDEE, appetite hormones, etc.) that occur upon weight loss--the things that lead to plateaus and/or difficulty with maintenance after reaching goal. Everything I've seen suggests that this will go on for a long time after losing 10% of body weight--even after 6 months, hormone levels don't recover to pre-weight loss levels, for example. Can any one point me to a study that shows referring works? I've tried to look through Amanda Sainsbury's stuff, but haven't found anything yet.

As you know, the concept of feasting/fasting has really only just begun to be investigated scientifically. However, there seems to be increasing evidence that periodic depletion of glycogen stores is beneficial for health whether this depletion is achieved through exercise and/or fasting. Here is an interesting paper that investigated the effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on metabolic rate in the context of previously depleted glycogen stores (by exercise in this case).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2246961
The authors conclusions are:

Carbohydrate overfeeding did not affect RMR, but increased DIT [diet induced thermogenesis] significantly, on average by 39%. Glycogen-depleting exercise the day before increased RMR significantly by, on average, 9% and increased DIT (P = .08), on average, by 23%. The impact of exercise on RMR was less when carbohydrate overfeeding was administered, but there was no significant interaction effect of carbohydrate overfeeding and exercise on RMR or DIT. It is concluded that both prior glycogen-depleting exercise and an antecedent diet high in carbohydrates may influence RMR or DIT.

So this paper finds that a period of overfeeding increases energy use via diet induced thermogenesis, while glycogen depletion through exercise increased resting metabolic rate. Perhaps understandably, combining glycogen depletion with carbohydrate over-feeding had less effect on metabolic rate.

I wonder whether the reduction in appetite that occurs with 5:2 or other fasting methods results in a daily calorie deficit and so the aforementioned slowing in metabolic rate (adaptive thermogenesis) which may perhaps be reversed temporarily by a re-feed.

If you look at the leangains website, you'll see that Martin Berkhan is keen on the idea of 16:8 combined with exercise but with periodic scheduled re-feeds. I haven't delved too far into his website but there may be some links to research there.