The FastDay Forum

I have lost over a stone on 5.2 in 8 weeks (and counting!), so I am very happy, but....not everything in the garden is rosy. I am still not sleeping well, more than 2 months in, and this is becoming more and more difficult to contend with. The extra energy is beneficial during daylight hours and I am certainly doing more of most things to try to dissipate it. However, I remain alert at night, sleep fitfully and seem to have lost the ability to sleep deeply and soundly, which I did before 5.2. I didn't have an ideal sleep pattern before 5.2, as I had been waking up once or twice during the night to go to the loo, but the difference is that whereas before I would resume sleeping, now more often I am in a state of wakefulness for much of the night. I wake earlier too now and tend to rise about an hour or two earlier than pre 5.2.
Trying to find a solution to this problem has led me to search through fasting literature, specifically intermittent fasting, and I am struck by how little is really known about the effects of IF in women, particularly. I note, however,that the general consensus seems to be that men benefit more than women by IF and indeed there are many fewer trials studying women than there are trials on men. Most striking is the possible link to a decrease in fertility in women, whilst IF has the opposite effect upon males. Also, surprisingly, it appears that doing IF for long periods actually decreases insulin resistance in women.This appears to happen in women when they are no longer obese and closer to a healthy body weight. It is also well documented that women are in a more stressed state whilst fasting than men, resulting in increased alertness (explaining my increased sleep deprivation?). So few studies are out there on some of the potential long term drawbacks of this WOL (particularly for women of childbearing age) so, although, for me this is the best "diet" I have ever done, I think I would urge my daughters and daughter-in-law to consider it carefully, before embarking upon it, especially as they are not overweight but would like to be at the lower end of the bmi scale. I would also advise them to use caution if they wanted to exceed a 24 fast on a regular basis.

[janeg]

That's really interesting Dhana. The sleep thing is something that isn't doing anything to me but, I know when I was at home (Shetland) at this time of year with the longer days, I got very little sleep. I loved being out and about and as the days got longer and the nights shorter, I was practically manic. Near to midsummer , when there is very little night time, I was ridiculously energetic.
Undoubtedly, 5:2 is having a bearing on your sleep, and maybe the longer days too? Not sure if that is helpful or got any ideas about dealing with it.
The stuff on fertility is intriguing too. Maybe when we're really established as 5:2ers ( and other permutations) there will be more reliable evidence.

Hi Janeg!
If you're feeling a bit homesick let me assure you that today is dreich! I am getting blackout curtains for my bedroom, because I really want to keep on doing 5.2. Hope that helps, but as you know with our short nights here the birds start chirping and singing in the wee small hours. I feel like shooting them! Before anyone gets upset, just a figure of speech! I keep my bird feeders well stocked year round - although I have removed the one stuck onto my bedroom window to the far end of the garden! My feeling is that as fasting becomes more mainstream, which it already is, a lot more studies will be done. Can't wait!

Interesting post dhana. I too, have some concerns re:effects on hormones and thus possible ramifications for fertility. As noted in the women only post on the weekend, a few of us have noticed some changes to our cycle. As you say, not a problem really for those of us who have already reproduced but perhaps is a concern for younger women. My daughter is 21 and watches me fast with interest. She doesn't need to lose any weight but she says now if she misses lunch because she is busy she is not going to fret about going into 'starvation mode'.

[carorees]

I think that most (all?) of the studies you refer to involved more severe fasting than we are doing or were done in rodents. I have posted about the fertility question and the insulin resistance question before (don't have time to find them right now). However, my impression is that the problems you mention may not be an issue with the modified fast we do. Of course, being overweight reduces fertility, so perhaps one needs to find a balance between enough fasting to control weight but not enough to reduce fertility.

The sleep issue is interesting as some of us are sleeping better overall, others worse. My sleep has been terrible for ages (since hitting the menopause). Since starting 5:2 my sleep has slowly been improving, particularly on non-fast days. I hope yours improves soon. You are right that it is the mild stress of fasting that causes it, and I wonder if one needs to find ways of reducing the stress?

I think you are absolutely right to be cautious about more frequent/longer fasting. I am looking forward to more research results being available!

Hi dhana, interesting post. Do you have difficulties every night or only on fast days. I just won't go to bed hungry so have something before I sleep on a fast day. Sometimes i have allowed for it in my 500 calories, but sometimes it takes me over the quota but I don't care, i cannot lie in bed feeling hungry! I am a couple of months in to 5:2 and was wondering if I would ever get the extra energy everyone reports as I have not had that effect. Except this weekend! I wonder if it is kicking in as I have not slept well and feel a bit hyper.
If I was younger and worried about fertility and already a healthy bmi I wouldn't do this diet. I couldn't do it when my son was little either because it would have been too draining. I think its the right woe for me at the right time. I don't worry about it being 'risky' as such as it is not really drastic fasting the way I do it and it is a bit like how I used to eat (unintentionally) when I was young (and effortlessly slim!).

At first the sleeplessness was the night I broke the fast, but now although it is less pronounced it is more generalised, in that almost every night I'm sleeping less well than before I started. I am not at all rigid about eating or drinking something to bring me a bit over the 500cals either. Agree that it is pointless to suffer if it is going to be the deciding factor in helping me get to sleep! I don't remember skipping meals when I was younger - I had my children pretty much one after the other and I spent a lot of their early years in developing countries, no mod cons, shops etc. and between breastfeeding and day to day living ate like the proverbial horse but was always thin! I still have a couple of stones to lose but may cut down from 5.2 to 5.1 for a while to see if that helps with the sleep but am concerned it will stop the weight loss, even though I know I should still lose, albeit more slowly. Need my zzz's!

Have you tried going up to 700 or 800 calories and see if that makes a difference?

Yes I agree with Jemima, rather than drop a fast day, maybe first off try eating something more substantial than you would usually, adding a few more calories before you sleep. Worth a try...keep us posted. It would be a shame to have to stop as you are doing so well, but getting enough sleep is paramount I agree!

Thanks for all the replies - I have decided to try to up my calories to 800 or so on fast days to see if that helps. I have spent the best part of the day sewing a blackout lining onto my roman blind in the bedroom to see if that helps too. I have been losing a lot of weight so far, and will be sorry to see it slow down (or even stop) but all I want to do is get a few nights of decent sleep. Haven't felt so tired since my grown up children were babies! The funny thing is I'm saying I feel tired, but actually I've got lots of energy, but in a manic kind of way. Will post on my results.

[janeg]

Ah sweet dreams Dhana, hope you get some rest. Do you do trivial mind games to try and get your brain to slow down? That and progressive body relaxation might help too...

[Betsysgr8]

The funny thing is I'm saying I feel tired, but actually I've got lots of energy, but in a manic kind of way. Will post on my results.

Just a thought, but have you had your thyroid checked? What you describe is exactly the way I felt when I was hyperthyroid. Hope you get the rest you need and deserve.

Thought I would bump up this old thread if anyone is interested /concerned about the fertility question.

I'm not able to tell if it's affected my cycle as I have a coil. However, I have bought blackout blinds, was waking up too early and assumed it was the light difference having moved from Scotland to Wales.

One of the current suggested things for insomnia is CBT and with reading about it, the most helpful thing said was not to chase sleep. So I've stopped fretting so much about not sleeping and seem to be sleeping better on the whole. I've also purchased an excellent mattress...

Other thoughts are to do with cortisol, so a "wired and tired" response to too many processed carbs from my reading. I'm now trying a diet (proper meaning of the word) with less bread, etc. I also drink milk, cocoa without sugar or a banana before bed, regardless of calories.

As with all these things, so many variables, it's hard to tell what is cause and effect or just co-incidence.

Hi dhana

I think I remember reading this post back in May when I'd just started and reading a link somewhere to an article about IF and fertility. I'm just the sort of person who, if there is a risk of reduced fertility, should be worried. I am 32 and have not yet started a family. I've been married 2 years and my husband is 3 years younger than me, so sees time stretching out into the distance with no thoughts of children darkening his horizons. I, however, can hear the old body clock ticking away every more loudly sometimes - especially when I see friends all around having babies.

And I'm not overweight - I just want to use 5:2 to get back to the slim me that I was when I got married. I'm nearly there - another 7lb would see me at my wedding weight of 8st 9lb (only ever saw that once on the scales!!), and I'd like to maintain at just under 9st. When I got to my previous low I didn't have any issues with my cycle, my bmi was a respectable 20 (I'd have to be a miniature 7st 12 to be underweight) and I felt great. I probably won't maintain at that weight unless I do 5:2 rather than 6:1 forever but a few pounds over might be doable.

However, rereading this has made me think. I really don't want to be doing anything at this stage to jeopardise my fertility - when we do decide to have children (hopefully within the next couple of years) I won't have a huge window of time to conceive and my fertility is already on the decline anyway (probably has been since I was 17 though!). I haven't noticed any changes in my cycles since doing 5:2 but is this the only indicator? Will doing 6:1 for maintenance potentially have risks for fertility? And is any damage once done reversible by reverting to normal eating patterns?

The thought of risking chances of conception for the vanity of being slim would be terrible.

Oh and the sleep thing? I know the 'wired/manic' feeling! The combination of light and hot muggy nights is making me sleep really badly at the moment - was still awake last night (this morning?) at 1am eating toast and peanut butter cos I was hungry (and too hot)! It'll be bliss tonight as its so much cooler - actually it's bedtime now and being on the computer is such a bad idea for me as it makes me more alert somehow - so I'd better get off and go to bed!