The FastDay Forum

The only issue I have with low carbs meal is that I have terrible hunger pangs less than 2 hours after a meal until the next meal. It's much worse than on fast days for example.

@Manderley IME, this really shouldn't be happening if you're in ketosis, i.e. fat-burning mode, which is what you're aiming for if you're going low-carb. Sounds to me as if you're having trouble switching into fat-burning mode (metabolic inflexibility), which is odd as you don't have trouble on repair days.

I'm wondering if your meal doesn't have hidden carbs in it, or very high protein (which can keep you out of fat-burning)?

Awful hunger pangs just *don't* happen in ketosis - psychological cravings can, of course, but that's not the same thing. Have you tried a near-fat-only meal, e.g. just cream / oils? And, if so, do you get the pangs with that?

Sorry, otherwise I'm well stumped. Hope things settle xxx FatDog

Advice please ladies!

I have done every other day fasting for the last week. I have been pretty good on all days and haven't stuffed myself silly or gone mad on carbs. I have been drinking shed loads of water as it is so hot here but I feel like a zeppelin, bloated and puffy. I am a tad 'bunged up' and am not sure what to do.
Any thoughts?

Do you use linseed at all @Debs? If not, it's possibly worth adding that into your diet. All sorts of bonuses apart from it helping to make one "regular" (google for "flaxseed cancer pubmed", for example) - it isn't a laxative though, so it won't have a immediate impact. All the best, FatDog.

@FatDogI tried a near fat only meal once or twice but can't tolerate it, it makes me nauseous and the kind of sensation you have with an indigestion. As for the hidden carbs, if I take the example of today's lunch it was carrots, lean meat and cauliflower, all steamed, with a tiny bit of lemon juice and fresh herbs. Nothing else, except water and less than 2 hours later I was more hungry than on a fast day. Very strange....

Maybe it's because I don't have anymore fat to burn or I need to eat more proteins ?

On a fast day, I only take liquid, water, black coffee or soup, maybe that's why I don't have any problems with hunger these days

Back2back fasts over and I'm on a 16:8 today before my last fast of the week on Thursday then weigh-in Friday.

Feeling good today I seem to have got my "high" back probably after the xmas rubbish, got that "thin today" feeling well thinner than yesterday anyway Lol.
just sticking with my normal lowish carb days but one query parsnips + root veggies good or bad? Just had big shock when I checked how many carbs were in this one weighs 250grams OK I was only going to have half of it but can't get my head around the veggies that come in as good especially after watching Dr oz vid last night

@sue.qa medium parsnip at 180g is 14g of carbs according to MFP. I would still eat it but roots are more carby than greens.

[<snip>
... if I take the example of today's lunch it was carrots, lean meat and cauliflower, all steamed, with a tiny bit of lemon juice and fresh herbs. Nothing else, except water and less than 2 hours later I was more hungry than on a fast day. Very strange....

Maybe it's because I don't have anymore fat to burn or I need to eat more proteins ?

On a fast day, I only take liquid, water, black coffee or soup, maybe that's why I don't have any problems with hunger these days

If I had the quantities I could work it up for you @Manderley but, just eye-balling that I'd say your lunch was protein then carbohydrate dominant. Indeed, I'm hard pushed to see *any* fat in there! Methinks that's where your trouble might lie. IMHO. The difference on your repair day is that you're not taking in (m)any calories at all, so you'll just stay in your fat-burning mode from overnight.

I've found that it isn't just the absolute carb (and, to a lesser extent protein) figures that matter, it's the % of each too. You could try aiming for a 75% fat level in *whatever* meal you take and see what that does?

Mind you, you've said that high fat doesn't agree with you, and that's really a problem: to paraphrase Volek&Phinney, to do low-carb you *have to* go high-fat.

As for no fat at all to burn up - as a lassie you'd look seriously ill / emaciated if you were below 10% fat. Let's say you weigh 45kg, that's 4.5kg of fat, equivalent to about 20 days of "food" at a 2000 calorie a day TDEE (4500g fat * 9 calories divided by 2000). So unless you've not eaten anything for twenty odd days, there's still some fat there to burn

Thanks for that @rawkaren Don't actually like any veg so will always struggle but seeing certain improvements I'm just getting on with the job of introducing back into my days small hardship for the amazing results I've got so far,
Why oh why hasn't my GP or nurse pointed this to me before I just feel I've been cheated for 30yrs makes me so mad!!!!!!!!!!

as ever when I start these thoughts I become well
oh sh*******

There's something I don't understand here. Cauli and carrots are in the low carbs vegs list so how can that meal can be high in carbs ? For the quantities it was 80g meat and 100g vegs

I am 48kgs so my priority is not fat burning, more muscles building and, as proteins alone don't agree with me either I don't have much of a choice than to go low carbs I guess

Damned this is confusing.....

Thanks for that @rawkaren Don't actually like any veg so will always struggle but seeing certain improvements I'm just getting on with the job of introducing back into my days small hardship for the amazing results I've got so far,
Why oh why hasn't my GP or nurse pointed this to me before I just feel I've been cheated for 30yrs makes me so mad!!!!!!!!!!

as ever when I start these thoughts I become well
oh sh*******

[soapbox]

Yup I think it's bad enough that diabetes clinics stay absolutely sshtum about low-carbing.

But, to my mind it's positively evil that the medical profession continue to ignore a very simple solution to epileptic fits in children - the ketogenic (i.e. simple very low-carb) diet.

In children for whom the pills don't work, the ketogenic diet stops fits completely in 1/3rd (usually within a couple of days), partially in another 1/3rd, and is sadly ineffective in the remaining 1/3rd. The medical evidence for the diet is as solid as a rock. There's even some indications that it works for grown-ups too.

But that's two thirds of these children that the docs will consider feeding seriously toxic drugs to, for the rest of their days, or even ablating (burning out) sections of the child's brain but won't suggest a dietary change. It makes me *select expletive of choice* weep.

The film "First Do No Harm" (starring Meryl Streep) tells this story in a very moving way ('tis on youtube).

[/soapbox]

OMG!!! @FatDog Thanks for that I had absolutely no idea. Even more disturbing my son was on that crap for 20yrs came of the medication his choice alone and to be honest I was very concerned, but discussed it sometime later with a specialist over an unrelated problem my hubby and this specialist said there were "many wrongly diagnosed"
in the 80s. Can you believe that? well you probably can.
We all put our trust in these people especially when we're vulnerable and in need of these so called "experts" then what, bloody to many years wasted!!! That's what.

There's something I don't understand here. Cauli and carrots are in the low carbs vegs list so how can that meal can be high in carbs ? For the quantities it was 80g meat and 100g vegs

I am 48kgs so my priority is not fat burning, more muscles building and, as proteins alone don't agree with me either I don't have much of a choice than to go low carbs I guess

Damned this is confusing.....

It is indeed confusing @Manderley, it is. Which is probably why the scientists have been throwing brickbats at each other for years. Insulin is the main controller here, but there are many others (and many unknown others, no doubt).

Think of it very simply this way:

Your body needs fuel to run.

If you don't give it any fuel it will, eventually switch into fat-burning mode and start using your fat deposits (and eventually your muscle deposits). You will not (usually) feel physically hungry. Your insulin will be low.

If you now give it some fat as fuel your body will continue in fat-burning mode - not your fat but the fat you've just eaten... And, again, you'll not feel hungry, even after you've eaten - as long as that meal was *fat dominant* (e.g. 70* fat). Insulin remains low.

If you give it a carbohydrate and / or protein dominant fuel (like your dinner), your body will produce insulin to process it and, in doing so, flip out of fat-burning mode. (Very simply - raised insulin = no fat-burning). Insulin will spike and (again, very crudely) once it has run out of yummy carbohydrate and / or protein to work on, the raised insulin level will make your body demand MORE carb / protein food - you will now feel hungry a couple of hours after you've eaten. So you eat more carb / protein and the cycle continues.

Sorry to the techie geeks - I've seem to have mangled the science in my search for simplicity - I'll need to find a better summary from somewhere.

Going "low-carb" for the big non-weight related benefits (e.g. anti-inflamatory, anti-gaga) still means that you need to go into fat-burning mode, i.e. ketogenesis, as this is where the biochemical switches that confer the major health benefits stem from.

Otherwise you're just looking at a carbohydrate reduced diet, which is a jolly good thing, but isn't really the same as ketogenic low-carbing. And you'll get hungry a couple of hours after eating those carbohydrates. Clear as mud?

Thanks for that @Fatdog
One thing I'm not sure about, after living on low fat (but not processed meals etc) is why if you go low carb, you should also adjust your fat intake.
As an ex Atkins girl, I can successfully keep to low carb, but am struggling with the fat intake.
Can anybody help me here please?

@FatdogI bought the Volek and Phinney book at Christmas and it just clicked when I was reading it about the Ketogenic diets for epileptics. We have a girl at school who has almost constant seisures and for a while she was on the ketogenic diet. I asked her 1:1 if she thought it had made a difference and she said that in her opinion it had vastly helped the girl but mum and dad found it quite restricting and very time consuming so they had abandonded it!

Because as @FatDog said you will run off the fat you eat (as well as the fat you've stored) rather than going into fat storing mode which will happen if you eat ANY carbs or protein. So....eating more fat keeps you in fat burning mode better and makes you feel fuller for longer too.

Hmmm... I feel like this came out of an episode of 'Yes! Minister'...Sir Humphrey Appleby's version.

Don't know about you @PennyForthem but I can say for sure you can teach an old dog new tricks!!!

how's your new baby Anu doing today?