The FastDay Forum

I am confused now! It sounds like NO protein and NO sugar because if you eat protein, even though it is low or no carb then it still converts to fat? I have had a lean roast chicken breast and a small piece of cheese today, I also had an undressed salad and some cream in my coffee but it looks like it just won't cut the mustard, and I am wasting my time, grrrr! Am off to stick my head down the toilet, see you all later when I've dried off, harrumph

Belly dancer x

Ballerina why didn't you have a dressing on your salad, or leave the skin on your chicken, or have a bigger piece of cheese? That would have raised your fat levels (though also raising your calories) whilst keeping your carbs the same.

I too can't understand why protein would trigger insulin to be produced?

There's something I don't understand here. Cauli and carrots are in the low carbs vegs list so how can that meal can be high in carbs ? For the quantities it was 80g meat and 100g vegs

I am 48kgs so my priority is not fat burning, more muscles building and, as proteins alone don't agree with me either I don't have much of a choice than to go low carbs I guess

Damned this is confusing.....

It is indeed confusing @Manderley, it is. Which is probably why the scientists have been throwing brickbats at each other for years. Insulin is the main controller here, but there are many others (and many unknown others, no doubt).

Think of it very simply this way:

Your body needs fuel to run.

If you don't give it any fuel it will, eventually switch into fat-burning mode and start using your fat deposits (and eventually your muscle deposits). You will not (usually) feel physically hungry. Your insulin will be low.

If you now give it some fat as fuel your body will continue in fat-burning mode - not your fat but the fat you've just eaten... And, again, you'll not feel hungry, even after you've eaten - as long as that meal was *fat dominant* (e.g. 70* fat). Insulin remains low.

If you give it a carbohydrate and / or protein dominant fuel (like your dinner), your body will produce insulin to process it and, in doing so, flip out of fat-burning mode. (Very simply - raised insulin = no fat-burning). Insulin will spike and (again, very crudely) once it has run out of yummy carbohydrate and / or protein to work on, the raised insulin level will make your body demand MORE carb / protein food - you will now feel hungry a couple of hours after you've eaten. So you eat more carb / protein and the cycle continues.

Sorry to the techie geeks - I've seem to have mangled the science in my search for simplicity - I'll need to find a better summary from somewhere.

Going "low-carb" for the big non-weight related benefits (e.g. anti-inflamatory, anti-gaga) still means that you need to go into fat-burning mode, i.e. ketogenesis, as this is where the biochemical switches that confer the major health benefits stem from.

Otherwise you're just looking at a carbohydrate reduced diet, which is a jolly good thing, but isn't really the same as ketogenic low-carbing. And you'll get hungry a couple of hours after eating those carbohydrates. Clear as mud?

Great summary@fatdog. @manderley, I'm prone to occasional bursts of intensive exercise and find I do need extra carbs to fuel my performance. @creakypete I also think does this as a runner but I think he is more of an expert than I am on how to find the right balance to give you just enough fuel. However if you want to build muscle, you will need to be upping your protein intake.

Also I didn't understand your number. 80g of meat and 100g of veggies. Is that carb grams or weight. If carbs that does not seem right. Your plate would be HUGE! have I misunderstood?

So far so good today. Thinking hard how to up fats, and not over do protein. Crackling, yoghurt, mayo is my plan so far. Had veg & coconut soup for lunch - loved it, but it was from the canteen, so hoping it wasn't too carby. Butter on veg is good, and eating the skin on chicken.

I'm now very, very confuzzed...
I think I shall plough my own sweet furrow with what I know works for me.
Calories... check
carbs...check
Fibre.... check
drinks.... check
cholesterol (err... we haven't mentioned that one yet, have we?)... check
Fat... booger....

I am confused now! It sounds like NO protein and NO sugar because if you eat protein, even though it is low or no carb then it still converts to fat? I have had a lean roast chicken breast and a small piece of cheese today, I also had an undressed salad and some cream in my coffee but it looks like it just won't cut the mustard, and I am waiting my time, grrrr! Am off to stick my head down the toilet, see you all later when I've dried off, harrumph

Belly dancer x

MM recommends keeping protein modest to keep IGF-1 levels down (anti aging/disease etc etc). Carbs also for health benefits as already discussed here. This means you have to take up the slack with fat. Both @simcoeluv @carorees can provide far more articulate responses than me as they are up to date with latest new thinking on the role of fat. And don't worry about cholesterol. Fat is good but when mixed with carbs and sugar = eevillll

So I agree with Julie. I would have had lashings of oil and vinegar dressing on my salad

Disaster day here due to grandsons and fun. Lost count of everything, even ate a Jaffa cake (they forced me to, honest) and about to eat an easy quick pizza before I pass out/fall asleep.
Fast commences after pizza until 7pm tomorrow so all will be well :0)

Ballerina why didn't you have a dressing on your salad, or leave the skin on your chicken, or have a bigger piece of cheese? That would have raised your fat levels (though also raising your calories) whilst keeping your carbs the same.

I too can't understand why protein would trigger insulin to be produced?

I couldn't eat chicken skin if you held a gun to my head but I suppose if the gun was loaded then I could force myself, also, I thought cheese was protein or have I got that wrong along with everything else?

Rawkaren, thanks for the tip but I would rather eat razor blades than an oil and vinegar dressing, yuck! Sorry

Belly dancer x

I couldn't eat chicken skin, crackling or any meat fat either @Ballerina. Cheese is a good protein source but can also be very high in fat, especially cream cheese and mascarpone.

I have not shied away from dairy fat now for years and although a modest meat eater ( should that read that I eat a modest amount of meat? ) I have never liked the fatty cuts, makes me heave. I love cheese, eggs etc and the only thing I have deliberately tried to avoid eating is sugar, in all it's forms and guises, oh well, I'm off to pour out the non fattening, sugar free wine and think of other things cheers,

Belly dancer x

Thanks for that @Fatdog
One thing I'm not sure about, after living on low fat (but not processed meals etc) is why if you go low carb, you should also adjust your fat intake.
As an ex Atkins girl, I can successfully keep to low carb, but am struggling with the fat intake.
Can anybody help me here please?

Hi:

If you don't count alcohol, there are only three things with calories - fat, protein and carbs. If you go low carb, you are cutting calories from your diet. That is fine if you want to lose weight.

But at some point, you need to stop losing weight and maintain, so let's look at that.

Excess carbs are bad, so you need to keep carb intake low (current thinking less than 15% of dietary calories). Protein is necessary, but not good in large amounts (reference Dr. M's program)(again, 15% or less dietary calories). That leaves fat. It turns out, (natural) fat is good. Even saturated fat is good (that yummy stuff around and in a good steak).

A quick look around the internet will demonstrate that there is little information on the nutritional content and the function of dietary fat in the body. Information is all on its high caloric content and how bad it is and how much you should avoid it.

But I have found no solid scientific studies showing natural fat dietary intake is bad. What I have found are studies (and I was a participant in one) that show when you increase your fat intake, your blood cholesterol and triglyceride numbers improve. There are studies, however, that show your blood saturated fat levels increase with the increased consumption of carbs.

One of the interesting things in all of this is that doctors assumed decades ago that the human body did nothing good when processing fats. In other words, if you ate saturated fat, it went straight into your bloodstream as saturated fat. If you ate food with cholesterol, your blood cholesterol levels increased. Science now knows that is dead wrong. Science also assumed that the human body did nothing bad when processing carbs - they were simple providers of calories and nutrients. Science now knows this opinion was dead wrong, and the body processes carbs in a way that is detrimental to the body over time.

Knowledge in the world is doubling every few years. What was absolutely true 7 years ago may be dead wrong today. I always refer to the time when a person graduated from the greatest university on earth they absolutely knew, because they had been taught, that the world was flat. And fat is bad.

We shall see.

Great post Simcoeluv, many thanks,

Belly dancer x

Great discussion everyone, I'm enjoying it from the sidelines, although I did have a good laugh at your "modest meat eater", Ballerina! Am trying to moderate carbs & proteins & increase fats, but meeting some resistance from parts of me, having been a lifelong "bread girl" - luckily I don't give a stuff about sugars. Oh well, onward & downward!

[wildmissus]

I agree with others, there is a lot of confusing and conflicting information out there.

For my dinner tonight I had chicken breast with a rather large helping of cauliflower and broccoli cheese which I loved and it tasted so much better as here was no potatoes with it.

When I think about it I'm not overly fond of potatoes any way, however as a child every meal was meat, potatoes and a veg and usually without a gravy or sauce. I wouldn't thank you for that now prefer a pasta dish or rice dish. So managing without potatoes - not a problem (unless of course I walk past the chip shop).

@Azureblue, my work trousers felt really tight around the waist today. Weigh in day is Friday so I'll wait and see.

@Ballerina, I can't cope with skin, fat, crackling. I remember a few years ago making sirloin steaks, cooked in there fat. The first thing I did was cut that big curve of fat off and then there was bit fight between OH and no. 1. daughter as to who was going to get it. Daughter won and promptly put the whole lot in her mouth and it went down in one go - I was gagging, my stomach is turning writing this. Yuk, disgusting.

[wildmissus]

Also meant to say that I should feel tired today but I don't. I had a late night last night and OH snored like pig! I feel like I've got more energy - might even get some things done tonight.