The FastDay Forum

Ice cream and fruit for carb loading?? Does it work Olsen? I have a problem with carb loading too as I'm not used to eating a lot of pasta rice or bread.

well done, didn't you do well.

Thanks @Nessie
@Franglaise, yes if you add some more carbs to them, fruits and ice cream will do. I found I can eat massive amounts of maple syrup. It's probably a wee bit better than white sugar because of some minerals:
http://www.sugarfreemom.com/recipes/the-facts-about-maple-syrup/ and better than honey because it isn't fructose.
I will try white rice and paste for dinner next time too.
The trouble is you need massive amounts of carbs in the 3 days before.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/fitness/carbo-loading-is-it-key-the-day-before-a-marathon/article1359197/
So to the fruits and ice cream, you have to find a sports drink without fructose (or tea with maple syrup)
You can probably just go without, but then again I haven't hit "the wall" in my two marathons.

Congrats on the pb, RO!

I'm a contrarian because I've purposely been avoiding carb loading for all races and trainings.

Paraphrasing the Volek/Phinney books: "The human body is limited to a maximum of around 2,000 calories of glycogen storage. Even for a very lean athlete energy from stored fat is at least 20 times that amount."

For me, this contrasts the possibility of hitting a wall after a few hours of vigorous exercise (when carb-loaded) against being able to go for several days (when fat-adapted). My thinking is that I'd rather be tired at the end of a longer race using an abundant and steady energy source offering the potential of being able to do even more, than preclude that possibility by continuing to be sugar dependent.

I think the ideal is to be able to use both sources of energy, ie not losing the fat-burning by getting dependent on carbs but being able to use some carbs (and full glycogen stores) in addition.
Peter Attia's blog is well worth reading, his experiments show that maximum power/speed is slightly compromised by running on fat alone. Anthony Colpo is dead against the idea of not using carbs if you are aiming for decent performances and he shows that the successful fat-adapted trail runners all seem to use gels/bars/bananas etc to keep themselves going at a good pace.
I always struggled with trying to eat during long events, I just did not fancy any sort of food after the first few hours and was usually breathing too heavily to be able to chew...
Possibly the extremes of tiredness I experienced were due more to dehydration than lack of carb energy, knowing I had several weeks of fat in reserve did not help when I felt completely knackered - and I must have been well adapted to manage several 16 - 24 hours events without gels etc. Never ate during a marathon, never drank during a half...

Thanks CreakyPete! Yes. Agree across the board.

It's always worthwhile to continue to read, listen and learn from those faster and more experienced at whatever challenge is contemplated. Experiments then isolate and focus what works into a personal routine.

From beginning runner to marathoner, there are so many ways now to avoid or defeat most long-standing endurance and/or performance issues while keeping it fun and interesting. Exciting times.

I only have 23kms to do on Sunday but like Pete, struggled to eat during my last half marathon (I took some dried apricots but dry food but swallowing it was awful). For a half I don't think it is too important to eat, but I was really dehydrated and even found drinking difficult especially because the water was cold. I haven't really been carb loading this week, and I haven't bought any gels so I'll see how it goes on Sunday, probably not very well!

You will be fine Susan, don't worry! One drink at 10k perhaps, unless it is really hot, and a nice steady pace...

Try taking grapes! They store easily in a zip-lock snack bag, travel well without getting damaged and the juicy sweet flavor is just heavenly.

Take them off the stem and give them a quick rinse before putting them in the bag. Sticky fingers near the end of a race can be really annoying.

I will create a carb loading thread in "exercise" etc. Too much great info and experience is beginning to pile up in this "more secret place"

I had a slow run/walk with the dog yesterday and I could still feel the marathon in my legs. No "spring" and small aches in different places. I really want to get going again but it is obvious I have to take it very easy at least for a week more.

About the fasting part I had a normal fast day Thursday. Friday (yesterday) I had great intentions of eating TDEE and healthy. That lasted until lunch where I blew it and once the lid was off, it was a "lost day". Maybe it was just too early to fast as I can tell you I was very hungry. Usually I use a strategy of eating a protein bar (a "quest bar" with only 3 grams of active carbs, no sugar) with 20 grams of protein. It works like a plug in the stomach and I feel satisfied and can easier control cravings. Only not yesterday. I had two bars, and still I gave it up later for chocolate and bread.
I think I just experienced a very basic mechanism of the troubles with weight loss:
Some part of you win over any kind of determination and decision you had in the morning.
One of the great things about 5:2 is that fasting for a day (for the first times) is an achievement that creates a stronger mental anchor than "just following a diet". Im mentioning this because today I can look back at the successful fast days and say "I CAN control what I eat".
This is important because any negative feelings about a "day-lost-to-eating" should be stopped immediately and replaced with positive thoughts about oneself. The negative thing is just feeding the food devil inside. The important question is:
"How can I break this pattern next time?"
In my case it began at lunch at work. I decided to eat healthy but failed to go and pick up the salad. The second I decided to take some bread, the cause was lost. Bread just works like that on me. Another issue was it was a social situation. Social situations when you are hungry is "DEFCON 5" situations for me (dangerous and prone to eating disasters). I should have got up and recognized this day wasn't the day for small chat.
To make up for it I wanted to take a run later (I did) and afterwards be back on healthy eating track (I wasn't). Quite a roller coaster day.

Yes, the psychology of fasting and nonfasting is interesting and should be given a lot of attention. For me the idea of 5:2 is that you have the fast days in order to be relaxed on food for the non fast days. If you have to be too restrictive on non fast days, the whole idea of part-time focus gets lost and it becomes an ordinary diet. And we know they are not sustainable. Surely it does not mean you can 'eat what you like' on regular days, but normal portions of reasonably balanced food should do. And with two fast days, one real feast day a week is surely admissible. It's not a race to maximize weight loss each week, just a long term strategy to get in shape. I think it is also important not to see it as a project. Projects work fine, because they enable us to focus attention and get clear and quick results. They enable us to invest a lot of energy and willpower for a certain time. And that works! But the defining element of a project is that is does not only have a beginning, but also an end. Because once the goals are met, the focussed energy and willpower are no longer needed and in most cases their levels will be so low that the need to be replanished anyway. So I would rather opt for a slower pace, less use of resources, more relaxation and intake of energy during the process. This is not a marathon, this is a lifelong run (or more likely a gentle walk in the park with the occasional interval session in the form of a marathon )

I haven't been posting as regularly as usual, so here is a small update.
Since the marathon I am eating more than usually. None of the usual tricks, like eating a protein bar (with 3 g carbs) to feel full, help. I even failed a fast day last Monday for the first time by eating way too much in the evening. So in the light of having Thursday/Friday off from work this week and next week, we've decided at home to take a break from 5:2, reorganize and be back on track Tuesday the 10th of June. Regular fast day Monday falls in Pentecost, where in Denmark we have Monday as Holiday (I think in UK it's whit Monday, only at another time).