The FastDay Forum

Fellow "nerds"

I can't crack this one alone, has he got a point?

This article talks about carb balance, fat balance and protein balance and basically says paleo, "low carb", and LCHF are "wrong".
Obvioulsy carbs isn't just carbs, considering GI and blood sugar impact (and in turn insulin levels), but has he got a point?

There are references to some studies.
A little preview

As an example, Miller and Mumford did three experiments involving overfeeding humans with a supplement of 1300-1500 kcal per day, either high in protein (~15%) or low in protein (~2.7%). [2 full text] Fat content of high- and low- protein diets was held constant, so high protein diets were reduced in carbohydrate, and vice versa.

Their data showed large deviations from predictions of the energy balance hypothesis. Subjects overfed a low-protein, high-carbohydrate diet consistently gained less weight than predicted by the increased kcaloric intake; in fact, some subjects on low protein diets lost weight despite consuming an excess of 8-10,000 kcal in a week.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.dk/2011/06/fat-balance-versus-energy-balance.html

Thank you for sharing that!
just read it, very interesting, I am one of those who love carbs and always will lol!! my family is of Italian decent, I have eaten pasta and rice all my life, most of my family in Italy are healthy people and they eat the stuff every single day!!
loved this article, put that in your pipe carb haters and smoke it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think if there is one thing I have learned on this forum, it is that different things work for different people. I was watching Gary Taubes the other day, and he made the point that for "people who are carbohydrate sensitive", a low carb routine is a better choice. Everyone is not carb sensitive or insulin sensitive, just like everyone is not gluten sensitive or nut, milk, egg sensitive, so it makes sense that when research focuses on only one macronutrient, they are going to get the results they are looking for (not referring to your article here, @runningolsen). What we really need is to look at large scale epidemiological studies of entire populations long term to look for the optimal health for different groups of people. But because food & nutrition have become so politicized, that is nigh impossible.
I am starting to believe that when you find what works for you after trial and error, you can pretty much detach from the rest of the information. There are as many solutions out there as there are people, so no one has to smoke anything - we're all coming at it from a different perspective. As a person of Italian descent who is diabetic, insulin resistant and stressed, I do much better on a lower carb regimen, but my cousins, who are all painfully thin, can eat carbs until the cows come home with nary an issue. It depends and it varies....

Thanks @angie090465 (love your pipe comment and @MLCDz
I have the same experience that people are different, but I like to think we are more alike than meets the eye. What's different can be a lot of things that can affect weight loss (level of fidgeting for one thing, how much clothes you wear for another) But I would really like to think that if we apply the exact same conditions (nutrition and exercises) to the same gender and body fat percentage, it will give the same results.
Of course one's personal level (or disposition) for insulin levels plays a huge role.
- First I got my head around a calorie is not a calorie
- Then Atkins, paleo, LCHF pointed fingers at carbs
- Then Fatty acids weren't just fatty acids
- Then "protein is good cause it makes you feel fuller and is not turned inti body fat easily"

A lot of stuff to learn! But this really changes the protein/carb game if true. It also raises questions about fibers, which I more and more think is a kind of overlooked key (for me, anyway)
So the composition of your food - eating your TDEE on normal days - makes a huge difference. It could explain some of the "I eat my TDEE yet I don't lose weight" posts.

I have a bunch of thoughts on this... I started writing a response, then realized a full page later that it will take me days to analyze that article and the several pieces of research in there. Who knows how long it took to write it in the first place, lol.

Maybe I'll have the time to delve deeper into it later.

One thing I did realize that a lot of the research cited was really old. Half a century old. The technology used to measure body composition and such was much less accurate back then.

One more thing to mention is the concept of NEAT (non-exerecise activity thermogenesis - look it up)

It's a situation that CAN occur when individuals start consuming extra calories. Studies have shown that in some cases the individuals will sub-consciously ramp up their activity levels through unnoticeable activities (like clicking a pen repeatedly, moving a foot to a beat, adjusting their tie constantly etc.) to such a degree, that they can burn of several HUNDRED calories a day. Yeah... pretty crazy. All the little movements add up.

The thing is, it's not consistent in the sense that it's different for most people. Some have a very serious case of NEAT when they start overeating, while others have almost no such reaction and get fat much easier.


Oh, would you look at that. Another half page of text. Okay, I'm gone, lol.

[carorees]

But I would really like to think that if we apply the exact same conditions (nutrition and exercises) to the same gender and body fat percentage, it will give the same results.

I think that is highly unlikely!

There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict how any one person will react to a particular calorie content and macronutrient content. We can develop general principles and we can predict that on a population level, cutting calories and particularly cutting refined carbs will be beneficial but as to individuals, only personal experimentation will find the answers!

Thanks for that interesting article RunningOlsen. I cant claim to be able to comment on the science behind it though!

I started seriously looking at my diet last September, when I was convinced to change from my vegetarian diet (which I was on for 24 years) to something more towards paleo after reading Marks Daily Apple. My health did improve, but by January 2014 I was at my biggest non pregnancy weight ever and had a BMI over 26. I started this WOE in Feb and have been struggling to stick to something low carb on my feed days.

Definately, refined carbs, bread etc make a difference for me. But I could never feel guilty for eating potatoes or brown rice! I am still searching for a macro balance that suits me. After reading this article I have refined my ratios to 60% carbs and 20% for both fats and protein. I also dipped into his article on why he was no longer paleo, and I can certainly identify with some of the side affects he has described. So, I am delighted to experiment with an increase carbs at the expense of red meat!

Well all I can say (in my completely unscientific way) is that we're all different - I eat low carb because it works for ME - I think I am/was quite insulin resistant and I know if I eat 'normal' amounts of carbs I don't lose weight and my blood sugars verge on pre diabetic (or they did, not sure now) BUT I know we're not all the same so what works well for me may be unnecessary for someone else. Whether you do low carb eating or not, I think it is undeniable that large amounts of refined carbohydrates when eaten with lots of fat have done a great deal to cause and sustain the current obesity epidemic so cutting down (on eating junk, basically) can only do good. But that's just my opinion.

Ohh to be a lucky one like our @angie090465 and able to enjoy yr carbs!
I love my carbs,addicted to carbs i think,but they don't love me..they bloat me up...big tum gets even bigger..some days my fingers swell up like a bunch of sausages! And i have swollen ankles most of the time.
I try to ditch the carbs coz i know i feel better without them..i hardly ever have pasta or rice now,but find it very very difficult to give up bread ..or scones and buns...totally
Angie ive met you and i know you look good on your carbs! I wd look better without them! X

I must say that I am really in the 'it will be different for different people' camp. Human beings are among the most complicated creatures on this planet, not only in term of biology/fysiology, but also in terms of psychology. The interaction of all these factors make for a hugh variation in what works in which way for who. Yes, some general 'rules' and mechanisms apply to most of us, but otherwise I it is up to each and everyone of us to find their way of fasting/eating that 'works'. For me, I'm in the lucky group for whom fasting works very well in combination with my previous way of eating (which I would call 'more or less balanced eating of everything', except ready meals/junkfood and large quantities of alcohol). Within these rather broad limits, I eat whatever I like (including lots of carbs, meat and some fat). Sure this would not work for everyone, but for me it means 'no stress on what and how much I eat', which is from a psychological perspective the only sustainable 'diet'. Speaking for myself of course.

It's very interesting and I am grateful for all your comments and valuable experiences. I will try to change my macro numbers and see what happens

Its almost dinnertime and I have spent the day weighing and logging every bite into MFP to try to ensure I get the right macro balance. Did you ever make a meal so nutritionally balanced that it tastes crap! That was my life today. I have given up for the day! I still have about 500cals left in my tdee (I've already logged dinner) but I have gone way over my sugars and under on fiber. Did you know that 200g of raw carrots have 15g of sugar? so I am baking a brownie and having a homebrew beer.

There are probably hundreds of articles on the internet on this subject, but this one might get you thinking again,@RunningOlsen! The take home message is not exactly new: Eat more whole foods. Stay away from processed stuff. Eat a balanced diet. And savor the fats you eat, enjoy a creamy avocado, rich salmon, and, yes, a little cheese. And don't forget to exercise!

Thanks everyone - I really appreciate your conversations - and how you approach the best of nutrition looking through your individual lense. Diversity is great and I learn a lot! x

I came across this old post in weighty matters the other day: http://www.weightymatters.ca/2012/09/ga ... it-to.html

Bottom line: different diets work for different people, and there isn't a single WOE that suits everyone.

As for me, I'll be trying to stick to Michael Pollan's advice: Eat real food. Not too much. Mostly plants. Well, that and fasting for weight loss/maintenance.

[carieoates]

What a bunch of thoughtful responses guys.
Yes we are all different , and I am in the "lose more fat when I cut my carbs" gang . Everyone here seems to have adapted their food intake accordingly in the past 13 months I've been here even.
We're just a load of sponges gathering up the info and knowledge provided by others.