The FastDay Forum

Dominic is using them to help him sleep and, reading around a bit, they appear to help with stress/anxiety/memory, which interests me for my OH.
So, dear knowledgeable ones, what do we think and know about this and how safe at what dosage please? Many thanks

[carorees]

I'm looking at it now....

First up, effect of #magnesium on blood pressure from a meta analysis of published trials ( Eur J Clin Nutr 2012 Apr; 66(4):411-8.):

Although not all individual trials showed significance in BP reduction, combining all trials did show a decrease in SBP of 3-4 mm Hg and DBP of 2-3 mm Hg, which further increased with crossover designed trials and intake >370 mg/day.

I'm very curious about taurine, so I'm glad you asked the question, Azureblue. I mainly eat vegetarian with an occasional serving of fish, and I understand that vegetarians commonly have inadequate taurine, so I'd thinking of trying taurine supplementation.

I've been using magnesium in various forms (chloride and citrate, mainly) for about a year and have found it very helpful. It has almost completely eliminated sleeptime charleyhorses. Instead of being awakened several nights a week with excruciating leg muscle spasms, I now only have the problem once every few months. Also, applying the liquid form to muscle "knots" or sore spots is often quite effective.

From what I read, there's almost no risk of overdose with magnesium. What the body doesn't need, it excretes. (As I understand it, magnesium is necessary for absorption of calcium but the opposite is not true.) For some sensitive people a large intake of magnesium can cause diarrhea (magnesium, usually in oxide form, is the primary ingredient of some laxatives), but that can be handled simply by cutting back the dose.

Yes good question. I mentioned the taurine (and I suppose magnesium although not saying I had had it) apropos of helping with sleep.

I have had the taurine for a few nights and TBH didn't notice a lot of difference.

Yesterday I received and tried for the first time some 400mg magnesium + 200mg calcium tablets and some 100mg 5-HTP and had my first of these last night (one of each taken before supper). I feel I slept deeply and was quite muzzy-headed in the morning (even later too) - normally I am quite buzzy. This might be the magnesium or the 5-HTP or just placebo, too early to say.

I know I sound like a pill-popper which I really have not been in the past, but these are all 'natural' products and widely recommended. Still I would be interested to know of any other experiences with them or any contrary advice. I am not recommending them to others based on my experience I am just letting you know what I am doing. The suggestions of 5-HTP and magnesium I picked from Dr John Briffa's guide.

(I've cheekily edited the topic title to include 5-HTP too...)

I have a magnesium oil spray which is good against cramps. Better You I think the brand is. Also had magnesium flakes to use in the bath, and have read of others using epsom salts in the bath.

This is all for "trans dermal transfer" of magnesium - getting in through the skin rather than eating it. Most of the Mg in our bodies isn't in the blood stream but is in cells or intracellular fluids (apparently).

[carorees]

Paper on magnesium and sleep (Pharmacopsychiatry 2002 Jul; 35(4):135-43.):

the natural N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) antagonist and GABA(A) agonist Mg(2+) seems to play a key role in the regulation of sleep and endocrine systems such as the HPA system and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS).... Mg(2+) led to a significant increase in slow wave sleep (16.5 +/- 20.4 min vs. 10.1 +/- 15.4 min, < or =0.05), delta power (47128.7 microV(2) +21417.7 microV(2) vs. 37862.1 microV(2) +/- 23241.7 microV(2), p < or =0.05) and sigma power (1923.0 microV(2) + 1111.3 microV(2) vs. 1541.0 microV(2) + 1134.5 microV(2), p< or =0.05 ). Renin increased (3.7 +/- 2.3 ng/ml x min vs. 2.3 +/- 1.0 ng/ml x min, p < 0.05) during the total night and aldosterone (3.6 +/- 4.7 ng/ml x min vs. 1.1 +/- 0.9 ng/ml x min, p < 0.05) in the second half of the night, whereas cortisol (8.3 +/- 2.4 pg/ml x min vs. 11.8 +/- 3.8 pg/ml x min, p < 0.01) decreased significantly and AVP by trend in the first part of the night. ACTH and ATII were not altered. Our results suggest that Mg(2+) partially reverses sleep EEG and nocturnal neuroendocrine changes occurring during aging. The similarities of the effect of Mg(2+) and that of the related electrolyte Li+ furthermore supports the possible efficacy of Mg(2+) as a mood stabilizer.

Dominic, I've never experienced any "muzziness" with magnesium, and I've taken as much as a few grams a day, divided between morning and evening. (That amount may not be as much as it sounds. The different forms are not equally bio-available and are absorbed differently.) Would you consider taking magnesium alone for a spell and then 5-HTP on its own to try to determine which might be causing the fog the next morning (one or the other or the combination of the two)? I'm inclined to suspect that 5-HTP might be responsible. I did some reading about it a while ago and decided that the benefit-risk ratio wasn't good enough to give it a try. Unfortunately, I can't recall what exactly led me to that conclusion.

Really glad I asked as it looks like these substances could save the planet ... Er ... Maybe. Seriously, interesting stuff innit!

Our results suggest that Mg(2+) partially reverses sleep EEG and nocturnal neuroendocrine changes occurring during aging. The similarities of the effect of Mg(2+) and that of the related electrolyte Li+ furthermore supports the possible efficacy of Mg(2+) as a mood stabilizer.

Er, that's good I think? Sorry for my muzzy brain today...

Would you consider taking magnesium alone for a spell and then 5-HTP on its own to try to determine which might be causing the fog the next morning (one or the other or the combination of the two)?

Yes that is my plan. Well first I want to see if taking both together is having any consistent effect. If so, then I want to try each one separately.

I'm inclined to suspect that 5-HTP might be responsible.

You may be right, I think I read this somewhere too (unfortunately that means I might just have imagined it...)

Would you consider taking magnesium alone for a spell and then 5-HTP on its own to try to determine which might be causing the fog the next morning (one or the other or the combination of the two)?

Yes that is my plan. Well first I want to see if taking both together is having any consistent effect. If so, then I want to try each one separately.

Thanks, dominic. Do please let us know how it goes. I say that as someone who is not a good sleeper. If 5-HTP is/was the cause of the fog, I might still consider using it occasionally. There are times when I would happily accept a foggy-headed morning in exchange for a full night of deep sleep. (I refuse to take benzodiazepams or sleeping pills.)

[carorees]

Our results suggest that Mg(2+) partially reverses sleep EEG and nocturnal neuroendocrine changes occurring during aging. The similarities of the effect of Mg(2+) and that of the related electrolyte Li+ furthermore supports the possible efficacy of Mg(2+) as a mood stabilizer.

Er, that's good I think? Sorry for my muzzy brain today...

Yes, that's very good. Nikipins was telling me a while back that she had been on a course about sleep and the lecturer was talking about age-related changes in sleep whereby the deep sleep is reduced, so if Mg can reverse that, it's excellent. My high dose Mg arrived today so I'm crossing my fingers for a good night's sleep tonight!

[carorees]

Analysis of trials of magnesium and muscle cramps (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972143) found no benefit.
Magnesium may have a benefit in migraine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22895810
Low magnesium may contribute to depression in the elderly: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22695027

RCT on magnesium in pregnant women http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7631676
" Oral magnesium substitution decreased leg cramp distress (p < 0.05 compared with the placebo group, p < 0.001 compared with initial complaints), but did not significantly increase serum magnesium levels, excess magnesium being excreted as measured by an increase in urinary magnesium levels (p < 0.002)."

off to look up transdermal...

I use various supplements but I change them every two months. I found that a combo of magnesium and L carnitine helps me with losing weight.
A friend used 5HTP as an appetite suppressant.

Isn't Taurine one of the main ingredients of Red Bull which supposedly keeps us up?

Quote: "My high dose Mg arrived today so I'm crossing my fingers for a good night's sleep tonight!"

I picked up some Mg tabs that are 300mg but what dose is generally considered optimum please?