The FastDay Forum

What makes milk special is that the increase in insulin is actually three to six times what would be expected or predicted from the carbohydrate load in the milk serving[i].

That's pretty amazing stuff, thanks for sharing that!

On the subject of protein, I found that having high protein, low calorie meals on fast days (e.g. tin of tuna cooked up with tin of chopped tomatoes, or grilled tuna steaks) did not result in the same weight loss as when I had more balanced low calorie meals (e.g. mushroom omelette, or broccoli with pine nuts, parmesan and chilli). Not sure if that is typical but it was consistent.

Hi There, I am new to the forum - saw the Horizon program and have the Fast Diet book on the way from Amazon.

Had been on 5:2 for 5 weeks before Christmas, dropped 3KG and shifted two notches on the belt, so already a big fan

However, I must admit to being very confused by the IGF-1 / Protein debate. While I totally accept the other postings re the possible issues with high dairy consumption, a lot of what I have read (and I mean just this evening) would suggest that Whey Protein is "the good guy" and casein protein "the bad guy". Indeed a Wikipedia article (see below) suggests that Whey Protein consumption would seem to deliver a lot of the disease risk reduction benefits that reduction in IGF-1 is supposed to deliver.

So, I really am confused.com!

Any expeerts out there who can make some sense of this for me?

Many Thanks.....and Congrats to all contributors to a very lively and informative forum!

** From Wikipedia **

Health effects

The use of whey protein as a source of amino acids and its effect on reducing the risks of diseases such as heart disease, cancer and diabetes is the focus of ongoing research.[3] Whey is an abundant source of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs),[19] which are used to fuel working muscles and stimulate protein synthesis.[20] In particular, leucine plays a key role in initiating the transcription of protein synthesis.[21] When leucine is ingested in high amounts, such as with whey protein supplementation, there is greater stimulation of protein synthesis, which may speed recovery and adaptation to stress (exercise).[22][23]

Whey protein contains the amino acid cysteine, which can be used to make glutathione. However, this amino acid is not essential for the synthesis of glutathione, and some studies have suggested that the amount of cysteine in the diet may have little effect on glutathione synthesis.[24] However, another study suggested that large amounts of whey protein can increase cellular glutathione levels.[25] Glutathione is an antioxidant that defends the body against free radical damage and some toxins, and studies in animals have suggested that milk proteins might reduce the risk of cancer.[26]

I too am very confused Anthony. Until we know more, I'm taking the cautious stand of everything in moderation. I drink only 200mls of semi skinned milk a day and eat around about 90g's of protein. However, this isn't all the time and I do go over both on occasion.

I haven't found a study yet which shows benefits from intermittent calorie reduction where the intake of protein exceeded 30g per day *on the fast day*. References welcome

I think we don't know enough to start cutting things out of your diet. Like shell, I try to balance everything out. I actually consume quite a lot of milk and always have. I'm prone to having a bowl of cereal if I am hungry (well was).

Dairy milk has a lower GI contnent than soy milk, so soy is not necessarily the healthier option.

Also dairy milk is fortified with vitamins, specifically vitamin D. Vitamin D is difficult to consume as its not in a lot of food. It is also produced underneath the skin when the skin when exposed to sunlight. Therefore most of Scotland will be deficient because we never get the opportunity to expose our skin!

Vitamin D is essential for bone health and to ward off osteoporosis. So is especially important in the elderly who experience a decline in bone density as they age.

Vitamin D levels have also been shown to be low in obese people.

Also, everyone is getting very hung up on IGF-1. OK, it’s been associated with various cancers but what hasn’t. IGF-1 has been shown to be elevated in people with high level of body fat and decrease as % body fat drops. So it could be the high fat levels that are causing the cancer risk rather than IGF-1 levels itself.

The strongest predicator of health is a healthy weight. So worry about the things you can measure rather than things you can't. Certainly I have no idea how to go about getting my IGF-1 levels measured.

The following is copied from a website:

Symptoms and Health Risks of Vitamin D Deficiency

Symptoms of bone pain and muscle weakness can mean you have a vitamin D deficiency. However, for many people, the symptoms are subtle. Yet even without symptoms, too little vitamin D can pose health risks. Low blood levels of the vitamin have been associated with the following:
Increased risk of death from cardiovascular disease
Cognitive impairment in older adults
Severe asthma in children
Cancer

Research suggests that vitamin D could play a role in the prevention and treatment of a number of different conditions, including type1 and type 2 diabetes, hypertension, glucose intolerance, and multiple sclerosis.

[carorees]

I completely agree that we should not start cutting things out of our diets but that we should be mindful of being moderate in all things!

As far as I can tell, the IGF-1 story (although that is far from the only factor that influences the cancer risk) is that over-nutrition results in high IGF-1. Of course we assume that if we are overweight we have been getting too much nutrition, but normal weight people who can eat large amounts without putting on weight are also likely to fall into the same category.

The issue with milk is that it naturally promotes growth and hence IGF-1 because that is the function of milk!

Also dairy milk is fortified with vitamins, specifically vitamin D. Vitamin D is difficult to consume as its not in a lot of food.

In fact, UK milk is not fortified with vitamin D and what little there is naturally in milk is contained in the fat, so the levels in skimmed or semi-skimmed milk are virtually nil.

the best sources, according to the NHS, are:
oily fish, such as salmon and sardines
eggs
fortified fat spreads
fortified breakfast cereals
powdered milk

In the US, milk is fortified with vitamin D. There have been articles in the UK news recently about the problem with vitamin D deficiency here and some debate about whether it should be added to milk. Considering milk promotes IGF-1, it would be better if they fortified something else!

I stand corrected; I thought milk was fortified with Vit D in the UK.

I'm not sure I agree with your idea that over nutrition is responsible for elevated IGF-1 level. I think the research clearly shows that IGF-1 varies proportionately to levels of adiposity. If you over eat and don't put on weight then you are most likely using the up calories. If the calories have been used, spent, how can they cause any problems?

I think they fortify milk because it is a basic produce that most people use. So it is most likely going to be consumed by the majority of the population.

I don't think milk is the main thing that people should be worrying about.

Hi Echo

I think it's been proven that even the skinniest person can be just as un-healthy as an obese one. Visceral fat can affect those who eat exactly what they want without paying attention to the types of food they eat. I agree with you that we shouldn't make it a huge issue, but it's worth talking about to ensure we're all informed and therefore, have some degree of control over our lives. The food industry would have us blind and buying the total rubbish that they peddle and I refuse to be part of their money grabbing attitude.

Milk seems innocent enough, but when you hear that it raises your insulin by 300% it's scary. Dr Lustig tackles the insulin debate, have you ever read anything by him?

Great debate guys. Love it.

shell

I'm not convinced that this is the case:

I think it's been proven that even the skinniest person can be just as un-healthy as an obese one.

But that is just my opinion.

I think that most normal weight people are healthier and less prone to disease. You do get the exception however obesity almost guarantees ill health.

Look up visceral fat, it's fascinating. 'The men who made us fat' also has great info on this. There is a link to the show on the resources page of this forum.

Also you have to look at Dr Mosley's results on the Horizon prog, he was very unhealthy (blood work), but not that overweight.

He may not have been that overweight but he was 13.5 stone and lost 20 lbs doing IF so i don't think he passes as skinny.

Visceral fat shows up on the weighing scales too

The reporter on 'The men who made us fat' was not fat in any way.

It is not just how much we eat but what we eat.

Jacques Peretti was the reporter on 'The men who made us fat', not Dr Mosley. He has fat around the face - compare David Coulthard.

If you read my post I made the distinction between Dr Mosley and the reporter from 'The men who made us fat'.

I've watched the programmes and they are very interesting. I'm not sure if the case studies in these programmes are representative or not. However research still suggests that normal weight is the greatest predictor of health.