The FastDay Forum

So I read (indirectly - from the FAQ on the Facebook community) that Dr. Mosely suggests about 0.8g of protein for every kg of body weight. Trying to find a rule-of-thumb, if you use round numbers like 100kg (not far from where I am at the moment) and the standard male diet of 2400 calories per day, that comes to 80 grams of protein, or 20 grams of protein for every 600 calories and trying to stay under 7g of protein for a 200 calorie "meal." (Yes, I put scare quotes around "meal." )

I'm assuming that ratio ought to be sustained on fasting days to get the maximum benefit of the growth hormone reduction and keeping the body in "repair" mode and out of "go-go-go" mode longer, right? Or does it really matter that much what form (protein, carbs, fat) the 600 calories take on fasting days and the protein limitation is more-important on feeding days?

Part of the draw of this 5:2 thing, of course, is the way you don't really need to pay attention to what you eat on feed days and you only need to focus on fast days. That said, it seems that this protein limitation suggestion might yield rewards for people who want to be a little more attentive on their feed days.

Any thoughts on that?

The 0.8 g/kg is a generic guideline for typical eating. I recall hearing <30g protein per day on fast days somewhere, probably the paper by Varady http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/5/ ... nsion.html where the carbs are 60g, protein just under 30g, fat about 12g and fibre 10g.

[carorees]

After reading the book, my interpretation is that Michael suggests keeping to less than 0.8g protein/kg body weight/day as a general rule. He also suggests that the 500/600 cals on fast days should be comprised mainly of vegetables with some protein (i.e., keep carbs low but include protein for saiety). Having noted the nutritional content of what I am eating on http://www.myfatsecret.co.uk since starting the diet and having followed this general principle of having some protein and lots of veggies on fast days I have observed that on fast days my protein intake is around 30g, while on feed days it is around 50-90g, so the average comes in at around 60g per day. So it seems that for me at least, I don't need to worry too much about the protein content of my food as it is averaging out at about what Michael recommends.

However, it looks like the food eaten on feed days is likely to have the greatest impact on your average protein intake therefore it makes sense not to worry about protein on fast days as even if you just ate a big steak, 500 cals worth of steak would give you around 45g protein so you still come under budget as it were!

Also I spotted an interesting research paper the other day (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22527168) which looked at the relationship between protein intake and IGF-1 levels. They were interested in how diet could affect prostate cancer risk (high IGF-1 increases risk). They found that increased dairy protein in particular increases IGF-1. And other studies have also found that dairy protein is a strong promoter of IGF-1. So if you want to keep an eye on anything in your diet, my guess is that it would be worth being moderate with the dairy produce!

Hope that helps!

Caroline

[carorees]

I was interested in the relationship between dairy products and IGF-1 so I looked a little deeper and found some interesting information.

Milk and whey products actually contain IGF-1. These products tend to increase the amount of insulin released after a meal as well as background insulin and IGF-1 levels. Because milk is meant to help young mammals grow it is understandable that it should contain substances that promote growth (and also laying down of fat). Whey proteins are most potent inducers of insulin secretion. Researchers suggest that restriction of milk consumption could have an enormous impact on the prevention of epidemic western diseases like obesity, diabetes mellitus, cancer, neurodegenerative diseases and acne.

I don't think this means we should all give up dairy and change to, say, soya milk, because the non-dairy milks have issues all of their own, but perhaps being aware of how much dairy we are consuming would be worthwhile. And perhaps say no to whey-based supplements that are being touted around gyms?

[Tracieknits]

That's fascinating! Does turning milk into cheese alter the composition at all? Doesn't a lot of whey get left behind in the cheesemaking process? I have to say I'd have a fairly easy time getting rid of the fluid milk in my diet - but please don't ask me to put down the Saint Andre, Double Gloucester or Brie de Meaux! Oooh, now I want a bit of Cotswolds cheese...

Wow, thanks carorees! Awesome stuff, except less dairy makes me a sad panda...

I should probably cut back on dairy for a number of other reasons, anyway, but that fact doesn't make it any more happy-making.

If you think about it, growth hormones and growing rather than repairing is a very youthful thing to do. Repairing rather than growing is a very adult thing to do. The whole "wean" thing is quite literal when it comes to milk, and the human body often (though not always) helps with this via lactose intolerance.

Now I'm wondering if the protein connection might be merely a coincidence because of high-protein things like dairy and its IGF-1 rather than something wrong with protein itself...

That said, this website says 500 calories of top sirloin has 82 grams of protein and not 45, so it's probably not a good fasting day meal... (although perhaps a half-serving combined with a bunch of high-fiber vegetables like spinach might be okay)

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories- ... rams=267.0

And thanks, PhilT, for that link -- good to see the numbers and suggested values. The protein grams for the three 450 calorie meals suggested are significantly higher than the ratio I came up with (80g for every 2400 calories).

[carorees]

Ah, I was not looking at sirloin! Probably to do with fat content!

[Tracieknits]

Is it only fluid milk? or are cheese and yogurt bad too? You mentioned whey, so I'm wondering if cheese has less of the IGH-1 -- TY!

That's fascinating! Does turning milk into cheese alter the composition at all? Doesn't a lot of whey get left behind in the cheesemaking process? I have to say I'd have a fairly easy time getting rid of the fluid milk in my diet - but please don't ask me to put down the Saint Andre, Double Gloucester or Brie de Meaux! Oooh, now I want a bit of Cotswolds cheese...

Whey is indeed the byproduct of making cheese, the cheese is the solid fraction separated out of the whey.

[carorees]

Finally found some info about cheese! This is from Brad Pilon's blog http://www.bradpilon.com

Milk and other dairy products raise IGF-1 levels more than dietary protein found in meat. Milk contains carbohydrates, and drinking milk raises both glucose and insulin levels. What makes milk special is that the increase in insulin is actually three to six times what would be expected or predicted from the carbohydrate load in the milk serving[i]. This is true for skimmed and full-fat milk, but not for cheese[ii]. A glass of milk added to a low glycemic index meal can boost the insulin response 300%, to the level produced by a high glycemic index meal[iii]

Refs:
[i] Ostman EM, Liljeberg Elmståhl HG, Björck IM. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Jul;74(1):96-100.
[ii] Holt SH, Miller JC, Petocz P. An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76.
[iii] Darwiche G, Ostman EM, Liljeberg HG, Kallinen N, Björgell O, Björck IM, Almér LO. Measurements of the gastric emptying rate by use of ultrasonography: studies in humans using bread with added sodium propionate. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Aug;74(2):254-8.

So it looks like, as we guessed, cheese is not so bad! Hurrah!

[Tracieknits]

That's fantastic - thanks so much!! I have a bit of leftover Saint Andre I was saving for my lunch - I plan to spread it on a slice of bread and top it with a bit of onion and garlic marmalade.

I love my 200mls of semi-skimmed milk with freshly brewed coffee. Should I give it up? Could this be a factor in increasing my hunger? Should I switch to a little double cream instead? God, so confused.

Shell

I wouldn't get too caught up in the composition of your food. I don't. I love carbs, protein and fat! Probably why I need to lose weight.

I just stick to the 500 calories on fast days and don't think about anything else.

Some stuff says have low protein, others say your protein content should be high, then they say don't eat carbs then they say have a low fat content in your diet. Well your food has to be made up of something. I try to keep things balanced a bit but on the whole don't pay attention to what it consists of.

I have a philosophy that no calorie is a bad calorie as long as you use it!

Hi Echo

I do agree with you, but I'm battling hunger at the moment, on fast days and feast days. I want to consume things that do not spike my insulin and therefore cause me to over-eat. I know it sounds a little crazy, but I do believe that certain foods set me off on a full binge. I want to sort this out once and for all. I've done some research and it looks like 1 tablespoon of double cream is only 51 cals and does not have the same affect as milk on the body. I like cream in my coffee, so will try this for a few weeks. I eat low carb anyway, so this will be good for that too.

Thanks for the support

[carorees]

I agree with Echo, let's not get hung up about dairy, protein, carbs etc. However, it is interesting and I think it helps when being mindful about what we eat on feed days as well as fast days. For instance perhaps it is better to have varying breakfasts than always have cereal and milk; perhaps it is wise to have some low carb dinners (i.e., not based on potatoes, rice, pasta etc) and some lovely pasta dinners too. Also, we know that protein helps one to feel full, so on a fast day when we have few calories to play with perhaps protein and veggies will be more filling that mashed potato for example!

But in the end it comes down to what works for you! I'm certainly not going to give up milk etc, but I may choose not to have cereal and milk for breakfast every morning!