The FastDay Forum

[wildmissus]

What do you nerds think about this.

I've been reading Dr Briffa's book Escape the Diet Trap as mentioned on the forum recently. He advocates a low carb way of life and if you are trying to lose weight and are stuck in a plateau he suggests intermitant fasting. But.... he says if your are stressed do not fast as it will affect the adrenal function.

Now as someone who is not medically minded at all I asked Mr Google about it as I have been big style stressed recently and whilst my stress levels have reduced somewhat I am just washed out and knackered all the time.

So it would appear that if you are overstressed you deplete the adrenal glands ability to release enough hormones to counteract the effects of stress and this results in adrenal fatigue and symptoms of tiredness, depressions, poor digestion - see this link -

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/endocrinology/a/adrenalfatigue.htm

And the reason you shouldn't fast is that fasting puts even more stress on the adrenal glands.

Now to me this makes some sense as the adrenal gland is the fight or flight gland and if something stops it working properly then we are not releasing enough hormones to 'fight' then we will be exhausted.

When googling a bit more I found that taking siberian ginseng is great way to restore the adrenal function.

I also noticed that gp's do not recognise adrenal fatigue and a comment from someone else saying that this is something that was made up for companies to come up with remedies and make money.

I've been reading a lot about hormonal responses to food and diet. A lot of the advocates of this type of paleo/clean/IF diet say to make sure you sleep a lot to aid recovery. I think there's a lot in this approach, so stress (cortisol levels) are things to think about as well as actual food intake, both quantity and type.

[carorees]

So sorry to hear you have been under a lot of stress recently, and really hoping things continue to improve.

I think that the issue here is not that adrenal fatigue can occur...it is a recognized syndrome...but how commonly it occurs. For example, in severe illness adrenal fatigue is documented, but there is some debate as to whether 'normal' workplace stresses can be enough to deplete the adrenals significantly.

It is also true that fasting may increase cortisol levels to some extent, though the extent will likely depend on how long the fast is. Was Dr Briffa referring to any particular length of fast in his recommendation of intermittent fasting?

I'm not sure that ginseng would have much effect beyond that of a placebo. The published papers on ginseng and cortisol that I could find were all in not particularly reputable journals!

Stress and consequent cortisol production can worsen insulin resistance so the low carb diet is likely to be a good move in these circumstances.

So, I would say that you should fast if you feel up to it but not if not! Perhaps shortening the fast to 20-24 hours followed by a normal meal (no calorie restriction) would give you the benefits of fasting without raising cortisol and the proper evening meal may encourage good sleep (as poor sleep will also cause cortisol levels to rise).

One thing that really does lower stress levels is feeling in charge of your situation, so if fasting helps with that then continuing with fasting would be a good thing. Only you can decide!

Sending lots of virtual hugs your way...

I have been having a lot of sleep related problems since starting 5.2 and having tried various ways to overcome it, mostly gleaned from this forum, but with limited success, decided to give myself a complete break for a couple of weeks. No fasting, limiting calories or low carb. Result? Weight gain of a few pounds and much improved sleep...Feel rested and back to normal self at the moment, but am fasting today as I am still much too heavy. If the sleeplessness kicks in again will it be coincidental?.... I really want to get down to a healthier weight but is fasting damaging my endocrine system thus negating all the benefits of losing weight? And why is it some of us seem to be more sensitive than others to the feelings of alertness and sleepless nights than others who are reporting improved sleeping patterns?

This may be subjective, but I have low testosterone. Its not normally looked for in women and causes everything described, such as tireness, depression low libido etc. I have a 6 monthly implant for it, usually by the end of month 5 I am sliding into testosterone depletion and getting depressed, tired etc. My appointment for renewal has been delayed twice, I am now on the 7 month of the last implant and should be crawling on the floor with tiredness and depression yet I'm not.
I noticed that my mood and energy have stabilised in the up level (taking pain level factors into account). There is one other reason for it, which is being menopausal, but I have no other symptoms of the menopause. I, at the moment am attributing the stabilisation to the fasting and finally shifting so much weight (carrying that weight around must have caused stress as well).

[wildmissus]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Caroline, Dr Briffa referred to ADF, 5:2 on 650 cals and 16:8. Seeing in black and white what you have written about low carb I know what I need to do. I start with no carb breakfast, lunch time is high white carbs and dinner time is very high white carb and there are lots of high carb sugary carbs. I need to reduce my carbs and eat healthier for the benefit of my health!

Dhana, I'm on my 2 weeks holidays at the moment just having a few days out and generally chilling in the beautiful weather and not getting up by the alarm clock. I have noticed that I am going to bed a lot later at about midnight and wake just before 9am. So I need almost 9 hours sleep. When I go back to work I will need to discipline myself to go to bed at 10pm to get up at 7am. It is a bit of a chicken and egg thing - I want to loose more weight but I want to feel well at the same time.

I am going to continue fasting but give liquid fasts a rest for a few weeks in favour of having a ham and egg salad on fasts days. Hopefully given a bit of time I'll start to perk up a bit.

All the best with working it out wildmissus as you need to not feel and be exhausted. You will get what works for you sorted I am sure. Oh and great topic to stimulate discussion on

WM, you might want to read Robb Wolf and the Hartwigs' "It starts with Food". I'm not advocating a completely paleo diet but a lot of what I've read has made sense. Particularly the actions of hormones and stuff about cortisol & stress/sleep.

I'm not giving up dairy & legumes any time soon but upping the veggies and meat seems to be helping.

I was steered towards Dr.Myhill in the UK at one time for tiredness etc. She recommended that going to bed at least 2 hours before midnight was the easiest start to repairing adrenal and general fatigue. She told me that the adrenal glands and others started to repair once the sun went down, going to bed too late stopped the repair to quickly. It was much better to get 1 hour of sleep before midnight than 2 after midnight. It helped at the time.

[janeg]

That's very interesting Julie. I need sleep- a lot and always find that going to bed early is much more effective than sleeping in. Thought I was imagining it but you have pointed to the proof- ta much.
Hope your new strategies help wildmissus and enjoy the good weather.

Dhana - I struggle with sleeping on fast days too. I tried half a glass of warm milk at bedtime 2 fasts ago and think I did sleep a little bit better. I didn't do it on Monday and had another fairly sleepless night. The other recommendation by Dr Moseley is to have an egg at bedtime. While I don't really fancy that, I may try it next week if today's fast ends up another all-nighter.

Actually, I just wondered whether an late night egg-white omelette might do the trick and without using too many of those precious 500 cals? Worth a try...

Oh...and I score off the charts on stress tests and have a high basal cortisol level. I wonder if that is linked to sleeplessness on 5:2?

[wildmissus]

Thank you BBT, I'll have a look at that book.

Julie, I guess the saying that 'an hours sleep before midnight is worth 2 after' is true after all and with good reason.

I'm a great one for reading and getting information on how to improve my health, etc. Like most of us, I know what I should be eating to lose weight and I know I should be in bed by 10:30 at the latest but it is actually doing the things that is the problem!

Did anyone watch Michael Moseley's Horizon programme on personality last might? Apparantly we can change our personalities through CBM and mindfulness. In 7 weeks he changed from being a pessimist to being an optimist thus changing from being a chronic insomniac to sleeping much better! After the programme I googled Andy Puddicombe who did the mindfulness and downloaded an app with some mindfulness meditations on it. But, this is just another thing that I know helps but I need to commit to everyday (but it's only 10 minutes).

I wonder if those who are having trouble sleeping are running slightly low blood glucose? Not enough to make you hypo, just hyper alert. Is it worth trying a small carb load before bedtime on fast days.mi routinely have a piece of fruit around 9 pm and really feel more relaxed after that. Get off to sleep easily. Just a thought

The carb load could be why milk at bedtime works as milk is quite carb high.