The FastDay Forum

Phil, I agree we have to be in negative energy balance overall to lose weight. The question is whether one should be in negative energy balance on feed days? I think not (or at least not always). The next question then is, how does one get an accurate TDEE calculation? They seem to vary so much from calculator to calculator. Have you looked into this at all?

Exactly my point Caroline. To be honest I hate the fag of counting calories and all that it implies, i.e. I'm on yet another 'diet' and have to monitor what I eat constantly. But, having no thyroid gland I have metabolic problems which are not addressed by replacement thyroid hormone. Yo-yo dieting over the past two decades has further compromised my metabolism to the point where I am obese and chronically unwell. I have sufficient insight to recognise that my lifestyle choices have been a major contributing factor to my weight gain but I think when you've enthusiastically embraced many diets in the hope that you will find the magic key to unlock the process of weight loss permanently, you tend to lose objective perspective. All of these diets fail, inevitably, and compound the problem.

Along comes 5:2 and I know, intuitively, that the rationale makes sense - I do lots of research (carried out, I must say, prior to Dr Mosley's Horizon programme) and feel that here is something I can do. I'm no stranger to fasting and find it liberating. BUT, and here's the rub: on a fast day, one is meant to consume 25% of one's 'normal' daily calorie allowance, which is what? The ballpark figure is 2000 calories for women, 2500 for men. Given my metabolic profile, the fact that I have mobility problems and have difficulty walking never mind exercising, I want to know how many calories I 'should' be consuming on a 'normal' day so that I can work out what is optimal for me on both fast and feeding days and stick to it.

As I'm now being offered surgery for my weight/health problems, and am horrified by the prospect, I want to get this right; I need to get this right. I would love to say, on feast days, 'sod it' and just eat freely without a care in the world but I am afraid, if I do that, the weight won't budge - after all, this attitude got me to where I am in the first place! So I don't just want to take a stab at it - I need to have confidence that I'm headed in the right direction, when the weight stalls etc., and just push on, without abandoning it. I am convinced that knowing one's accurate TDEE is a vital component in understanding the science of intermittent fasting, and successfully making it work on an individual level. Of course, there are many people who will follow the guidelines of 5:2 in its broadest sense and will benefit enormously, but I fear I am not of their number (maybe that's my problem?)

Sorry to be so long winded!! Wonder if there is an answer to this question? Thanks for listening.
Marlene

I am with Minime on this one. I don't want to be bothered counting calories on 5 days, but I think the very act of fasting on 2 days of just 500 cals, has had the effect of not wanting, or being able, to over eat on the 5 normal days. Getting back to the basic understanding of the Fast Diet as described in Dr M's book----- this is designed to be an easy to follow regime, unlike so many other regimes. Tomorrow will soon be here, and the science shows that tomorrow will have us eating no than 10% above our normal, even if we do try to compensate. I think this is a liberating way of loosing weight, and by far the most likely to be maintained for a lifetime.

[carorees]

Marlene, I think 150lbs is right about not calorie counting on feed days being the most sustainable method. I understand your worry about overeating on feed days but again 150lbs is correct to say that after a while you find you can't overeat easily. The second thing is that a few of us have found we have paradoxically lost less weight on weeks when we ate less on feed days than in weeks when we ate more. Of course it could be coincidence! Having said all that, I would propose that you start off according to Dr M's method of eating under 500 cals on fast days and not calorie counting on feed days. Don't weigh for at least a month, preferably 6 weeks. If you have not lost any weight by then, if it were me, I would add another fast day rather than reduce the feed day cals. If you feel you can't bear to let go on feed days, go for a low GI approach rather than calorie count.

We are all gathering experience with this WOE and in 6 weeks not only is it likely you will have lost weight but we may have learnt more about the feed day dilemma!

What do you think?

Yes, Caroline, low GL is a really useful tool, which I have failed to fully understand. I have been looking at it again this week, and think it is the healthiest way of coping with carbs, which we all agree are an important part of our nutrient intake. I am trying to find a nice, easy book with a list of GLs of correct portion sizes of common foods, in other words, not lists which include minute things like nutmeg, which just make the science unreadable, and so, unmanageable. I suppose I could always draw up my own list, now that I have time on my hands, saved from food prep, and washing up!

Well blow me down!!

Wrestling with this (clearly I need to get a life), I looked at the Harris-Benedict formula, which is apparently the gold standard for working out BMR, given in 'The Alternate Day Diet' book and decided to work it out for myself. And the answer I came up with, based on my particular weight, height, age and activity level is 2001 calories BMR which means that a fasting day should total 25% of this which is 500 calories. In fact, the average quoted by Dr Mosley.

Having been counting calories since I started 4:3 three and a half weeks ago, I'm averaging 1600-1800 on feed days and keep well within 500 calories on fast days. I know this because I've been keeping a record on myfitnesspal, otherwise I'd have no idea how many calories I consume on fast days. The author of The Alternate Day Diet suggests you keep a food journal, at least initially, so you can accurately gauge how many calories you are eating and monitor results. This seems to me good advice, especially if, like me, guessing how many calories any food contains tends to be way off mark.

Anyway, I'm very reassured by this and I feel I can now stop being so anal about the whole process, relax more on feed days and just log what I'm planning to have on fast days to make sure I don't go over my 500 calories.

So the answer to my original question is, work out the maths for yourself - use the formula and don't rely on online calculators which seem to me to be on the whole inaccurate.

Yes!

I'm happily mixing calorie restriction with fasting at the moment but then I'm very specifically trying to lose a fair amount of weight fairly quickly. My problem has always been keeping it off after I've lost the weight and am therefore hopeful that two days fasting in amongst 5 days feasting will help keep things more level. I have the weekend days at about 2000 calories (I think I need about 2350 to stay level), three weekdays are held to 1400 calories and two fast days at 600. That way I know I'm not putting weight back on the at the weekend - and after a calorie restricted week I find it luxurious even to get to 2000 calories

I suspect that too much calorie restriction along with fasting is probably borderline dangerous - whilst I can't envisage myself being anorexic, for some it will be a very real risk and it's very easy to get fixated on the declining weight. I'm hoping that by the time I've reached the weight I want to (probably June or July this year) I'll have conquered the habit of eating too much and my appetite - it may be asking too much but we'll see.

I guess the ramble above is me thinking that mixing diets in the long run probably isn't a good thing but may be good for specific short term targets.

James

I did the same as JamesM is doing but a combination of reading the fast diet book and the effort of recording the calories for everything I have changed to 4:3 and no calorie restriction on the other days. Appears to be working okay, not losing quite as much as I did with 5:2 + counting (1kg compared to 1.3kg week) but its a lot less hassle and I suspect better for me in terms of things such a losing muscle mass.

I started Weightwatchers at the begining of January and have lost 10lbs so far. However I recently had a blood test and my cholesterol is high (7.9). The doctor has suggested I go on statins but I really don't like taking pills.

I watched Michael's Horizon programme last year and was very interested in the health benefits of the 5:2 fast diet and so bought the book at the weekend. It suggests that weight loss may be less if you restrict calories on the non-fast days. I'm loathe to give up Weightwatchers as I like the support it provides and so far it's worked for me. However I do want to try 5:2 for the health benefits. Has anyone combined the two and if so what has been their experience?

I also stared with exercise and cal restriction and lost weight but then it stalled. So I though bugger it I'll eat what I like and just fast 2 days. I lost weight very slowly which is what your GP will recommend. I use myfittness pal on my iPhone and started noting what I eat. I was stunned to see that some days I didn't even meet the 1200 cal count!!
I'm trying to eat if I am hungry and that’s what I do. I notice I no longer snack and don't buy the same foods. I saw Toblerone on sale (I LOVE TOBLERONE) and though OOOh must buy, then I though well I'm not bothered. ME NOT BOTHERED SCAREY lol. I just didn't care, It happens slowly not over night you forget about food it's suddenly not important. I'm skipping lunch because I don't want any, I'm not stuck to ridged times to eat, it’s a complete change around. Being morbidly obese I would track my day with food it was my timetable. Now I have to force myself to eat some days as it’s not a fast day.
I think the hardest part of this is trusting yourself if you want it EAT IT. YOU WILL NOT DIE! YOUR LIMBS WILL NOT FALL OFF AND LIFE WILL CARRY ON! If you put on weight then think I will loose it on a fast day no problem. I put on 8bls over Xmas but I'm back down to where i was before and I’m just l starting again. I don’t give myself timetables of when I should loose x amount of pounds. I just go down on 7lbs so my next target is 14stone I will buy clothes and a book (my treat) and then remind myself how old I was when I last weighed this. I’ve gone back 20 years so far lol

Sorry I digress, if it helps keep a record of what you eat on non fasting days if after a couple of weeks you want to reduce it then take off 100 cal and see how it goes, that’s my advise ( for what its worth )


Fast days SAT& SUN ( i have no social life lol)

Not like i have nothing to do
but i found the discussions one year ago on this forum quite useful

heres is one to bump from January 2013 a few weeks after the forum started.
i wonder with a years experience and now that you have reached target weight you have anything to add further to this thread.

[Tracieknits]

Well I am mixing diets, but nothing extreme. See I was taking the scenic route for the vast majority of last year due to health problems. Add to that the realization that I just don't know how to eat like a "normal" person.

So now I wear a Fitbit, so I have a really accurate picture of what my TDEE actually is on any given day. I have been wearing it since October, and so now I get that if I do 10K steps in a day, including two brisk miles on a treadmill or outdoors, then I burn about 2400 calories in a day. So I'm learning.

And as to calorie restriction - the last couple of months, we've been too busy to fast two days a week. So we're doing a proper fast one day a week - eating nothing until 6pm. We try to do that on Mondays. I aim for a calorie deficit of 1750, or 1/2 pound in one single day. So I figure I'm getting the health benefits of fasting, and losing 1/2 pound of fat - in one day!

For the rest of the workweek, we do 16:8 *and* we calorie count. I aim for a 500 calorie deficit each day. BUT that being said, I'm also loosely following Dr. Amanda Sallis' recommendation to only eat if hungry, eat whenever I'm truly hungry and try to only eat mostly healthy foods until satisfied, not stuffed. So if I wake up on a 16:8 day and I'm really truly famished, I'll eat. It's not often that this happens, but it does. So I follow her recommendations and find that one day I might have a 750 calorie deficit and the next I might have a 300 deficit. I don't sweat it too much, I'm still trying to consider it a learning curve, trying to learn to eat like a thin person instead of a fat person.

Then on weekends, I allow Saturday to be a proper feast day - I have whatever I want and I eat up to my TDEE that day (2400 calories! That's a lot of food!), or maybe even a bit over. On Sunday, I even up the week, aiming for a 3500 calorie deficit for the week -- most Sundays, this means I can eat to my TDEE as well

So yeah, I'm mixing diets and so far in 2014 it's really working for me. I lost the couple of pounds I gained over the holidays, and five additional pounds!

Thanks JulianaRivers for bumping this thread

My TDEE is low, at 1360 (I'm short and old!) and whilst I'm using 5:2 to maintain, I still add up the calories I eat on a daily basis using MFP to make sure I'm not way over, and honestly, I don't trust myself to "normally" because that's what got into this mess in the first place!

I lost 25 pounds using CC over a period of 8 months (no 5:2) - I was restricting to 900-1,100 daily and now I can see why the loss was so slow, my calorie deficit was around 1,400- 2,100 per week, the same as I get now fasting two days a week!! Plus such low calorie intake probably messed up my metabolism making my body think it's starving

I started 5:2 for maintenance after I reached my goal .... and for this, I eat 500 calories on my fast days (which is higher than the recommended 25%), I have a couple of days in the 1,600-1,800 range and the remainder around 1,200. I don't want to lose more weight so I'm hoping the extra calories will compensate for the deficit without having me gain weight

It seems to be working, I've been maintaing for about 3 months albeit on the high end of my window. I've had what I think are big fluctuations +/- 3 pounds (well more like +3 pounds) but the key is not to panic and react when the scales show an increase, this isn't an exact science and you need to give it time to settle in

I know the thread was focused on weight loss and mixing diets and calorie counting but I thought I'd add my two pence worth

Happy 5:2

Hi,
Thought I'd add my twopennyworth in - I've been doing this since the beginning of June last year and have lost roughly 50lbs. I do 5:2, with one meal in the evening on a fast day. My TDEE is around 1570 and on non fast days I generally eat to that - though I have noticed that if I occasionally go over and expect to gain or have no weight loss I actually lose more weight than I expect so it's a bonus! I eat whatever I like except I do eat relatively low carb (50-75g daily); the weight loss sped up when I cut out the refined carbs like bread and I now find it really easy to do without feeling like I am denying myself. Not saying everyone should do that - I decided to for health reasons and find it beneficial. I lose around 1 lb a week and am perfectly happy with that.

I read about people on these forums talking about doing fast days and then also restricting their intake on non fast days - I really think that completely misses the point and turns this way of eating into just another restrictive diet (which I've always failed at and hated doing). The thing I have found about 5 2 is that fasting has reduced my appetite over time and I just cannot eat what I used to. It also seems to have lessened the craving for junk (though no-one's perfect). I still go out to eat, I enjoy my food, I have managed to ditch the omeprazole I was on for ages and I feel great, but I am relaxed about it and I will keep going till I lose what I want to and then I'll do 6:1 or whatever. I think I might have set my target a bit low but I can adjust it when I get nearer to it. When I read posts from people who are counting every last calorie and how much exercise they do down to the nth degree I think it's a shame to get so unrelaxed about something that is in essence, pretty simple to follow. And it works!

End of essay

PS I think people get so hung up about losing weight 'quickly' too ; most of us got fat from years of over eating - it's not going to come off in days or weeks! If people can get their heads round that and not get despondent when they don't lose 4lbs a week then so much the better. I'm in this for the long haul!!

I have been doing this for 4 weeks and I do calorie count because I know I would eat way over my TDEE if I didn't. I have had to go cold turkey on snacking and almost treat it like an on going project to do this. I have lost a stone in a month. I track my calories over a week and aim to lose 1 lb a week. I do try and eat up to my TDEE on non fast days and am managing quite well now. I had a wobble when I had a cold but I also know it's about food choices as well and i am trying to change what I eat. Considering sugar and carbs probably counted for 3/4 of food intake before this is a big change for me and my body.