The FastDay Forum

Having read some of the posts over the last few days, I'm a bit concerned that there is a lot of mixing of "diets" going on.

There seems to be a reluctance to give up day-to-day restriction of calories on feed days and so some people seem to be surviving on very little food/cals indeed averaged over the week, which is really counter-productive as to me the point is that I'm only hungry on specific days, not endlessly miserable.

I might be getting the wrong impression here but I think it's something we should discuss as one of the articles I read this week is about the possibility of becoming anorexic when the intermittent fasting becomes more ongoing fasting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/18/fasting-diets-5-2

As with everything there is a balance and in short posts someone can't really say why they only need 1200 cals on a feed day (and the opposite, more me, of chips and chocolate but not all the time!)

I'm rambling but do you see what I'm getting at? The joy of this woe is that's it's only one day at a time and mentally that's much easier.

[carorees]

This is an important topic which I also had been thinking we should discuss sometime.

First, I think that a lot of people are fairly desperate to see some weight loss and feel they either cannot trust themselves to eat "normally" on feed days or trust that eating normally on feed days will result in weight loss.

Some people have said (I think Moogie was one) that when they actually increased their calories on feed days they lost more weight, but along with so much to do with IF, hard evidence probably does not exist.

It would be great if people who have tried both calorie restricting and eating freely on feed days could post whether they noticed any difference in weight loss between the two!

Second, some people are not seeing an immediate weight loss while others are getting a big drop in the first week which does not continue into the second week, making people nervous so perhaps they then add calorie restriction to the fasting. We need to reassure these folks that, with time, the weight trend will be downwards.

Last, it is likely that during the first few weeks people are very keen and, as time progresses, either the calorie restriction or the fasting will be dropped. Hopefully it will be the calorie restriction that should be dropped but again, it would be helpful to know that the 'vanilla' version of 5:2 continues to work long-term.

Let's hear, then, from some folks who have been following this way of eating for some time...

On your non fast days, should you eat at TDEE level calories?

Before starting this I was using my fitness pal to track calories. I was eating 1790 calories a day. As my TDEE is around 2000 I should have been losing just under 1lb a week which I was fine with.

I did my first fast yesterday and ate 500 calories, and I am planning on eating 1790 calories today. Is this wrong? Should I eat at TDEE? As long as not eating junk 1790 is plenty of food but I don't want to under eat as I know this can ultimately have a negative effect in the long term.

I did Lighterlife and Weight Watchers a few years ago and they both said that the big weight loss in the first week is due to the loss of glycogen stored in the liver and after that has been used, it is then that the body starts to use the fat reserves. I think it is useful to note this and to know that after a big initial loss, it is more than likely to settle down at a much lower level.

What I am going to do is to do the two day fasts at 500 per day and then the feed days I am going to keep around the amount of calories I need to maintain which in my case is around 1900 according to the TDEE link. Only if this proves over the course of a month to not be working, I might decide to slighly lower my intake.

Angela x

My problem is knowing what is 'eating normally' if I'm left to eat freely I consume way too many calories, snacking all day. Since starting the 5:2 I have noticed that I don't have the urge to snack like I used to (early days though) I'm hopeful that my brain will start to learn what it needs and not just eat out of habit.

[janeg]

This is an interesting topic.
Initially I did 5:2 and had 1200 calls on feed days, 500 on fast days. Over 7 weeks I lost 3.4kg. Holidays and the festive season came and I managed a couple of fasts , perhaps one a week. January saw a slight increase in weight and the usual resolve to get back to it. I decided not to count calories on feed days. 8 fasts in and haven't lost a gramme/ounce/sausage. And have increased in size.
Another variable is exercise which I have started doing, so my tale of woe may not be usable.
And I now have one 500cal meal instead of two smaller ones.
According to the thingy, I need 1900 ish cals. Don't actually know if I hit that on feed days as I've stopped counting.
We would need data where the only variable is restricted calories/not restricting is the only change.
Does seem though that people tend to change how they have their calorie allowance on fast days but I don't know how relevant that is.
Hmmmm...

On your non fast days, should you eat at TDEE level calories?

The clinical trials behind it all were based on "ad lib" non-fast days, and found that the actual intake wasn't usually much different to TDEE - +10% perhaps or in some studies a bit less.

I doubt anyone knows their TDEE accurately, and it'll be lower on fast days due to less energy used for digestion, so I would say eat "normally" on non-fast days.

"Normally" might be calorie restricted, if you're adding 5:2 to increase rate of loss or for the health benefits.

[carorees]

I found some interesting thoughts on a website about intermittent fasting, which may have relevance:

when you’re fasting, leptin levels drop, which slows down fat loss. When you feast, leptin levels get bumped back up, increasing rate of fat loss. Putting a fast right after a feast, therefore, does two things:
* Prevents any fat gain from the caloric spillover of eating, oh, I dunno, 14,000 calories worth of ice cream by creating an immediate deficit.
* Elevated leptin levels from the feast prevent stagnated fat loss, allowing the hormonal benefit from the fast to proceed uninterrupted.

I will try to find out whether this theory has any scientific evidence to back it up. Certainly leptin is a key hormone regarding appetite and fat storage/burning. If true this would suggest that the fast/feast technique we are following would work best if the feasts are at least up to the TDEE. It may be that instead of reducing the calories on feed days, lowering them on fast days or adding another fast day is a better way of dealing with slow downs in weight loss. So, as stated in the OP, not mixing daily calorie restriction with IF.

I pretty much think you should eat on this WOE to suit your life and weight goal. I'm more concerned about people expecting unrealistic results and getting depressed when not seeing them. We all know what happens then if you eat for comfort normally.

I didn't really lose much weight in the first 3 weeks but my OH did the sums and pointed out I shouldn't be expecting much as to lose a 1b takes a calorie deficit of 3600 cals ish, which is about a week/10 days of fasting, depending on how much you restrict. So I relaxed as I was no longer expecting to suddenly be hugely lighter. Even now, my weight fluctuates so much it's hard to tell.

I've certainly had changes in how I want to eat on feed days too. So I started off with lots of chocolate (something I normally wouldn't have) and then some other cravings and now I'm not even that bothered. I suspect I'll eat less on feed days as time goes on and also it seems I've had a "virtual gastric band" as I get full more quickly and seem to actually notice this.

I think I eat average 2000 to 2300 calories on eating days. I should(with my walking 15000steps eat around 2000cal). Do you think I'll still lose weight? Coz life is so good that way . Right now not losing ...Why don't I weigh myself in 3 months like Dr Mosley did?Xx

[carorees]

Yes, you should do, but it might be slow. Plus when you have lost some weight and your daily energy requirement drops, you might stop losing, but hopefully, by then, your appetite will decrease so that you naturally eat less on feed days.

I think weighing after 3 months is a good idea if you can manage to stay away from the scales!

I will try to find out whether this theory has any scientific evidence to back it up. Certainly leptin is a key hormone regarding appetite and fat storage/burning.

Be interesting, especially in humans.

Leptin is produced by fat cells, saying "stop eating we're struggling as it is" but I am yet to be convinced that leptin levels regulate fat storage rather than being a consequence of it.

Yes, mixing diets is a real problem I could have. My first week last week, and although I planned to 'be sensible' on feast days, know I wasnt and went a bit mad! subsequently, haven't lost any weight, just estimating weekly calories tells me why!

However, you still should get the health benefits of fasting.

As I need to lose weight, a calorie deficit overall is the only way to do this, I'm sure I understood this from the Fast Diet website, so although feast days are 'unrestricted' they need to be moderate, not excessive. I think the theory is, that once you have the initial 'feast' idea out of your head, you fall into a pattern of normal daily eating. This is difficult for me. Although I can fast, and fast all day having just one meal. If you tell me the brakes are off, my stop button does not seem to work well.

All that said, I, like others, aim for fast days at 500 and feast days at TDEE as because of what I said before, I think it helps me to have a guideline of some description. Hopefull in time my body will sort this out and only 'want' to eat when I'm hungry full stop.

cheers

Jan

I had a huge salad with 2 boiled eggs and bit of couscous salad. Tummy hurts now!!!I wasn't hungry but because psychologically it was lunch time so I had my meal. I really have to learn that's ok to skip a meal...I could have had my salad at night

Saying that now I'm hungry!!!Ridiculous isn't it?