The FastDay Forum

But there is also the people, who are only a little overweight and religiously count cals, who then are fasting on top of their current restrictive diet. They are used to 1000/1200 cals a day and the thought of more is obviously distressing them.

There is no "one size fits all" prescription of how to diet here as every person is unique in their history, size and motivation. However, the basic principle is that the diet does restrict calories averaged over say a week, so people cannot have thousands of extra cals on feed days and and expect to lose weight. Likewise, they cannot restrict calories to the point of starvation, it has to be a reasonable approach of moderation, as described by both those that count cals and those who don't but stop eating when feeling satisfied.

By all means count calories but don't starve or gorge every day...

Hi BBT053

"But there is also the people, who are only a little overweight and religiously count cals, who then are fasting on top of their current restrictive diet. They are used to 1000/1200 cals a day and the thought of more is obviously distressing them."

Agree totally. But the first step is to audit and benchmark how many calories are being eaten. The second step is what you do with the knowledge, work toward the "norm" or abuse it. I guess the old "starvation" mode issues raises its head in this situation.

I do wonder though whether there is a difference between say consuming 2500 cals (the male norm) on a day and burning up 1300 cals in the gym or doing a TPW-diet (so Net cals consummed = 1200) and sitting in a couch in front of the TV and just eating 1200 cals and zero exercise?

The former appears "good" i.e. normal eating + lots of exercise, the latter "bad", but the Net cals are the same?

Thoughts?

I am keeping track of the calories I eat on my eating days for my own peace of mind because prior to starting 5:2 I was calorie counting on the Rosemary Conley low fat diet. I have been a yo yo dieter for many years & hope now that this will be a WOE that I will lose weight with but more importantly then maintain my weight loss. I am managing fast days very well & in fact almost monitor my own reactions to hunger because it is still slightly weird & interesting that I am not hungry. But I do find that when I eat on eating days my hunger returns & for me this is still a learning process & trial & error. I have today over eaten with an M&S Valentines Day dinner all more calorie than I have eaten on other days including, despite a chocolate mousse dessert, two walnut whips & wine. I fully expect when I weigh myself tomorrow morning that I will have probably put on weight. I have continued to slowly lose weight since Christmas, about 8lbs pre 5:2, & about 2 1/2lbs since starting this WOE but realise that I can allow myself treats now & surprisingly not beat myself up about it. With calorie counting I think there can be associated feelings of guilt & failure but what 5:2 has given me is a measure of control over my way of eating with the fast days almost like a comfort blanket or control mechanism that can reduce ones overall calorie intake & also rest & hopefully repair my body. I am still learning how to do this & with some interest monitoring my own responses & in some sense feel a little like an ongoing experiment. However at the moment I will stick with it in the hope that I will lose all my excess weight & become healthier in the process. I will continue to keep a record of what I eat on eating days for my own peace of mind just so I don't sabotage myself & I can tweak it if needed. I do have 5 stone to lose!

[carorees]

There is no "one size fits all" prescription of how to diet here as every person is unique in their history, size and motivation. However, the basic principle is that the diet does restrict calories averaged over say a week, so people cannot have thousands of extra cals on feed days and and expect to lose weight. Likewise, they cannot restrict calories to the point of starvation, it has to be a reasonable approach of moderation, as described by both those that count cals and those who don't but stop eating when feeling satisfied.

By all means count calories but don't starve or gorge every day...

This sums it up perfectly.

As has been said, the problems come when people don't know what normal should be. Personally, if I ate whatever my eyes and emotion said I wanted it would be well over normal (i.e. normal = TDEE). It is only through fasting which has changed my appetites (in terms of portion size and cravings) that I now eat within TDEE on feed days. Obviously, if this reduction of appetite works for everyone then counting calories will never be necessary. It might take a while for the effect to kick in though and while waiting people may see no weight loss or an increase and, naturally, consider stopping the diet.

So for people who don't know whether they are eating within TDEE or for people who are worried, counting calories may be appropriate.

Unfortunately, there is a second problem which is that the TDEE calculators give such variable results. If the TDEE calculation the people who count calories are working to is inaccurate it will result in either insufficient weight loss or cutting down too much resulting in excessive hunger and so failing to meet the imposed calorie restriction.

So what would be a pragmatic approach that would address the concerns of those who are nervous about not counting calories but also allow those who don't want to count calories to see a weight loss without starting calorie counting?

Caroline,

You raise a number of interesting points:

"Unfortunately, there is a second problem which is that the TDEE calculators give such variable results. If the TDEE calculation the people who count calories are working to is inaccurate it will result in either insufficient weight loss or cutting down too much resulting in excessive hunger and so failing to meet the imposed calorie restriction."

Clearly, one off calculators, where you enter height, age weight BMR calculators may vary or give variable results. Better estimates can be achieved by those that derive the BMR from monitoring trends in your daily weight, exercise and calories. This is what the program "Diet Power" does. But again, it's only an estimate. But should be considered as part of an ongoing monitoring program. It appears that MyfitnessPal does spot daily calculations based on the initial entries of just age, weight, height and sex.

However, I don't think you need to worry about what your TDEE is since:-

"So what would be a pragmatic approach that would address the concerns of those who are nervous about not counting calories but also allow those who don't want to count calories to see a weight loss without starting calorie counting?"

There isn't one, but something like:-

IF your BMI is into the overweight range >25 just eat normally _for you_ on feed days.

But if your BMI is >30 then monitor feed days cals for an average of 2500 (men) or 2000 (women).

In otherwords you take "your" individual TDEE out of the equation. Those of us (with no doubt large TDEE/BMR) work towards the population target rather than our own specific TDEE accurate, inaccurate or otherwise...

There's no harm in monitoring the consumed cals in either case though, but no need to calculate TDEE or BMR in either. Again, the further away from the "Norm" the greater the importance to count what is consumed...

.... I am not a doctor or nutritionist but have a background in psychology working with the NHS, so, I am interested in the way we address dieting psychologically. Surely the reason why many diets fail is that they often revolve around continuously monitoring everything that we eat whereas 5:2 can enable us to relax about food most of the time. Does calorie counting on food days count as a 5:2 ?

In the scheme of things does it matter Trevmum if one does count calories on a feast day? I think there are two ways to get confidence in a new 'skill', one is just to go for it and hope, the other is to tackle it with 'boundaries' ie a hierarchy to build confidence. As I said in my original post after a lifetime of yoyo dieting I have developed a good knowledge of actually how eating a little 'extra' causes me to gain weight; hence to just suddenly 'eat what I want' is a step too far in the early stages.

Trevmum, I get your point but I need to still monitor my calories on non-fast days because, after years of over-eating (what I thought was normal eating), I have no idea what "normal eating" and "normal portions" look like. I will monitor my TDEE calories until I learn what my normal is.

I started counting cals on my feed days with my fitness pal, just out of curiosity, and found I was well under my TDEE (1800ish)and that was me eating 'my normal'
I've always eaten healthy, it's what I prefer, mostly home cooking no processed (or very little)
I'm still finding it hard to eat that many even with a couple of spritzers in the evening....and I'm far from hungry!

Thank you Lastchance, all of my 'diet experiences' have resulted in small slow weight losses, it's helpful to be reminded to be realistic!

I'm more worried by those who hugely restrict calories on every day and end up averaging *on every day* less than they need to fuel themselves adequately over the week.

That is what will give this WoE a bad name.

Good point BB - especially as I'm more likely to under-eat which would be my 'diet norm', and hence my concern about eating many more (TDEE) calories.

By the way, what is WoE?

Hi everyone. Having seen similar discussions on various sites it is becoming apparent that there are different motives for those on 5:2. I am not stating my opinion, in case anyone gets upset, but just my observations. The word 'diet' to many is the same as weight loss, to others it is a relationship with food leading to good health. From the Horizon programme and MM's book I got the impression that 5:2 is predominantly the latter, and in addition it seems to provide weight loss. In my case it has probably taken me 25 years to put on 2 stone with a current BMI of around 28-29, so I'm looking for some weight loss but in no hurry. (I agree with your comments, Last Chance, that sometimes people expect and want dramatic weight loss, and it is interesting to consider the different approaches for those below and those above a 30 BMI).
I think this is why some want to calorie count on their 'days off' as they are concerned at slow weight loss, and also psychologically there is a worry about going overboard and bingeing. It seems that in one of the studies (Illinois) people were encouraged to eat lasagne, pizza and fries and STILL lost weight on an intermittent fasting regime.
I guess from a psychological viewpoint I would be interested in when you stop continuous calorie counting, and what happens then?. My wife is doing extremely well on a Weightwatchers plan coming up to 2 stone loss.......but this is about the third time in 10 -15 years as well as other diets.
So a pragmatic approach Caroline ?. Well nobody know yet if intermittent fasting is a viable, sustainable weight loss program. It is a complex area physically and psychologically. For me, psychologically, I dont want food ruling me so it is good training that the 'diet' affects my life for 2 days and for the other 5 days I do what I want with it. I AM learning that this is not the same for all, but I am mainly in it for health benefits and not worried about speedy weight loss.

I think that's the thing. If you have less than a stone to lose, you want it gone and can manage the deprivation aspects as you know it's fairly short-term.

My sister generally weighs around about 9 stone, and when her weight goes up, she immediately loses it with a short diet and generally loses about 2 lbs a week over 8 weeks until she's back at her ideal weight of 8.5 stone.

I have always been larger and having given up the yo-yo dieting I was a fairly stable 14st + for years, occasionally losing the same amount of weight but never able to sustain weight-loss over the year or more that it would take me to attain a weight less than 30 on the BMI scale.

Hence, I need a sustainable WoL, not a quick diet so I will always be more relaxed about calorie intake than someone who has put a bit of weight on, doesn't like it and wants to get shot of it asap. It because dieting every day for a year or more is soul-destroying!

The pragmatic approach is one where people can calorie-count or not calorie-count, depending on whether they need the control aspects (really, that's up to the individual) but where we encourage people not to over-eat or under-eat.

Defining that is more difficult and it has to be evaluated per person (speaking as someone with a 35+ BMI who probably eats ok most days as weight is mostly maintained not exponentially increasing) but there you go, everyone is unique.

I also think there is a gender aspect here as most women diet a lot of the time, whereas men diet for specific reasons and are under less pressure to look "good". I think this is changing as time goes on but look at the Top Gear presenters, if a woman had a gut like Jezzers, she'd have been long-gone...

[carorees]

Good points Trevmun!

Just wanted to clarify that the study you referred to where people were allowed to eat pizza etc was on ADF, which represents a much bigger calorie restriction overall (must be something like 40%) so it's hardly surprising they could not compensate for the fast days. By fasting 2 days only, it would still be possible to overeat if you choose calorie dense foods and drinks.

I am really concerned that I have gone from being a sensible fresh healthy low carb good eater on non fast days. Just because I read those immortal words 'eat what you like' instead of just eating normally. I find myself indulging my passion for butter on ryvita(previously only on my birthday) and going for trash snacks instead of my painstakingly prepared salads or stir fry (that I love). Who am I testing here me or the diet? Fasting no problem!

[carorees]

I'm sure the novelty will wear off! Mind you long term a very low carb diet may not be so healthy. Some carbs are good!