The FastDay Forum

If you can bear it, I'd suggest carrying on without the meds for a week. your readings are not higher than your last with meds values so I'd give it a few more days...

Yes, but didn't you also previously mention that I should return to my BP medication if my BP ended up being the same as, or higher than what they were beforehand? That therefore implies that my BP needs to be dropping with this experiment in order to show that it has worked. Just now, that hasn't been happening and whilst you did say that there probably wouldn't be any significant difference to begin with, I would have expected to have seen at least one or two signs of such an improvement already. Just now though, I'm just not seeing those early signs.

[carorees]

in two days without meds, your concentration of lisinopril will only have fallen by a bit over half...as the starting dose of this drug is less than half what your dose was, I would not expect to see a change yet. The fact that your BP has not gone up suggests that, either the drug is still working and not left your system yet or that it wasn't really doing much in the first place. Carrying on a bit longer will clarify things.

Thanks for that. Hopefully, I will have got that clarification by the time that I see my doctor next Wednesday, so that I can actually provide some decent results at that appointment. It will interesting though to see what effect today's fast has on my BP results, even though this will really just be a normal fasting day for me, albeit with a complete zero calorie 24 hour fast which will be broken at 7pm tonight with all of my 600 calorie allowance for today.

This morning, I have woken up really early yet again after another fasting day without being able to get back to sleep and sadly, that continues to be an ongoing problem. However, the results from this morning are a lot better. Before I come to that though, here are last night's BP results which are as follows:-

Reading 1 (taken at 10:25pm BST): 156/83 (Pulse: 52)
Reading 2 (taken at 10:28pm BST): 157/86 (Pulse: 52)
Reading 3 (taken at 10:32pm BST): 150/87 (Pulse: 51)

That is the most consistent set of results that I've had so far but once again, they show the same old story as before. At this stage, that would have made the results which I am about to report for this morning look very unlikely. Before I come onto that set of results though, I will report that with yesterday's fasting day, my weight has gone down to 72.8kg which is just over 11 stone 6 pounds. That once again takes me to below 11 and a half stone for the second time during this experiment.

That weight isn't quite as low as what it was after my first fasting day but then, I didn't do the full 36 hour zero calorie complete fast that I did then. Since the difference in my weight between those two occasions only amounts to 0.3kg and nothing at all in terms of my reported weight to the nearest pound, I am wondering if the zero calorie fasts will actually make that much difference which might mean that they could actually be fairly pointless as well as unnecessary. On the other hand, the standard 600 calorie fasts do seem to be making a difference and from that, I can now see why Dr. MM (who was on TV last night once again) came up with such a plan.

Today is the first feeding day after a fasting day, and this is always when I record my biggest weight gain from one day to the next as the body recovers from that fast. Furthermore, this is the start of three feeding days in a row and there is also the weekend amongst that. However, my weight has never gone above that record low level of 74.0kg since I recorded 74.5kg on Monday and if this trend continues, I will be well on course for recording a good overall weight loss for the week when it comes to Monday of next week. Anyway, those all important BP results from this morning are as follows:-

Reading 1 (taken at 4:36am BST): 140/85 (Pulse: 61)
Reading 2 (taken at 4:36am BST): 131/81 (Pulse: 58)
Reading 3 (taken at 4:41am BST): 133/79 (Pulse: 57)

As you can see, these results are a lot better, and a massive improvement on what I had got even last night. Here, it is only the first reading for my systolic BP that is high, and even that is only just too high and no more (anything lower would have even made that reading OK as well). There hasn't been quite such a big difference with my diastolic BP but the last reading for that comes in within the healthy range for that. Since I have those three consecutive feeding days, I should be feeling more relaxed over that time. Furthermore, today is also a rest day in terms of my gym and fitness activities. That means that as far as exercise goes, there will be nothing there today on that front, to send my BP upwards. I will therefore be hoping that these much better readings continue and show that I can manage without BP tablets (interestingly though,Dr. MM said on his programme last night that he would still continue to be taking his cholesterol tablets which seems to show that being on the 5:2 diet doesn't always mean that you will automatically be able to come off those meds). With a bit of luck, I might even take my doctor by surprise with that, when my appointment comes up next week because I have never ever believed that I would ever be able to achieve such a feat.

Weight is up by another pound since this time last week, and is now at 11 stone 11 pounds. My waist size has increased by another 0.1 inches and is now 31.7 inches. My best weight for last week was the 72.5kg which I recorded last Tuesday, with the worst figures being what I have just recorded this morning.

My blood pressure readings are still coming out to be quite high. They are showing a very slow and gradual downward trend over time, but this isn't now likely to be enough to bring them down to an acceptable level by the time that I see my doctor on Wednesday morning.

In the meantime, more details of what I have mentioned in this post can be found in my latest blog entry which I have just uploaded this morning.

For the last week, I have been conducting an experiment to see how my blood pressure reacts to me coming off BP medication. To that end, I have produced a chart which shows these blood pressure results, together with various trendlines for the systolic and diastolic blood pressures, as well as the pulse. In addition to that, each trend line shows the Linear Regression equation of that line, and the R squared value (for those who are into statistics, and can understand those terms). Each Linear Regression equation and R Squared value is shown in the same colour as the trend line which it refers to. This chart is shown below.

Monday 14 October 2013 was the last time that I took my BP tablets (which was 20mg of lisinopril every morning) but the graph clearly shows that my blood pressure is still not coming down after a week into this experiment. Indeed, the x co-efficient of the linear regression line for the systolic blood pressure is actually slightly positive which shows that this is still slowly increasing over time (if that were coming down, this x co-efficient would be negative as that is what shows the slope (or gradient) of that line). Indeed, I have had some horrendous results for that over the last two days with the worst one being a reading of 170/90 that was taken last night. I am therefore wondering if it is now time to call it a day and just admit that this experiment just hasn't worked, or if I should still carry on with it for a little bit longer in the increasingly vain hope that something might change for the better out of all of that.

[carorees]

It would be worth taking your tablets today to see if you get a drop in BP. If not, then your experiment will have shown that the tablets are not able to work because of too low renin levels and a different drug is in order.

That just goes to show that the 5:2 diet doesn't always work in terms of being able to come off BP tablets, but it just doesn't seem fair that I have read so many stories of people being able to do that whilst I can't. Of course, I have just completed a full 36 hour zero calorie fast which would raise cortisol levels (and probably my BP as well), but the results so far have shown that this doesn't seem to have made any difference either since the results were still quite high after my last such fast, after I had taken those tablets.

I have tried to come off BP tablets several times in the past without any success and because of that, I never really had any confidence that I could do so this time (hence the earlier anxiety about the results that I would end up getting). Since those previous occasions were when I was a lot heavier than what I am now, I was hoping that the fact that I have now lost a lot of weight might have made a difference there. Clearly, that has not been the case in my situation.

[carorees]

I wouldn't give up hope yet, I came off the tablets in May, after 5:2ing for 7 months! I'd lost 20% of my starting body weight at that point.

However, sadly, some people with hypertension do not seem to get a big reduction with lifestyle changes. It may be something to do with the elasticity of the blood vessels separate from cholesterol deposition etc.

I will be interested to see if lowering your carb intake has any effect. Also have you considered the DASH diet? This focuses on foods high in potassium as low potassium can increase BP. Worth googling!

Isn't the Diastolic value the more important? This seems to have a slight negative gradient, and the trend value is below what might be called hypertensive anyway...

[carorees]

yes and no...widening pulse pressure (difference between systolic and diastolic) is also undesirable. Google 'isolated systolic hypertension'

I will look into that DASH diet stuff, but it is the lowering of carbs that I have a real issue with simply because that goes completely against the grain of what my traditional way of eating would have been. That is particularly true since the 5:2 diet is meant to be all about being able to eat whatever you like on non fasting days.

If you go along that line of logic, then that should be true regardless of whether I reduce my carbs or not. That doesn't mean that I'm not trying to curb my intake of carbs. Today, I have just broken that big 36 hour fast with a breakfast that didn't contain much in the way of carbs. I have also not bought any of those desserts that I would normally have at lunchtime. These are just of couple of the steps that I'm taking to try and reduce my carbs.

However, that is quite a daunting task for me (as I have mentioned in so many of my other posts that I am becoming sick and tired of having to mention that) and it would appear that a lot people on this forum don't seem to realise that I'm not some sort of superman who can suddenly cut out my carbs overnight.

Yes, we can eat what we like on the 5:2 diet, but that is true with anything in life. We can choose to do the right thing in life and benefit from that, or do the wrong thing and pay the penalty for that. That means that whereas it would not be a good idea to do the wrong things in life, we are nevertheless free to do so if we wish. To me, it just seems as though the 5:2 diet is using only that concept to advertise the fact that we can eat "what we like" on non fasting days.

In my situation, that isn't the case in reality if the only way I can get the proper benefits from that is by reducing carbs, because that would mean that I can't really eat whatever I like with this WOL as claimed. That in turn points to the fact that the 5:2 diet is really not all what it is made out to be. With a lot of people, that can be the issue which turns them away from it (because at the end of the day, I don't want to end up turning into some advocate of the Atkins Diet and some sort of no carbs junkie).

It will therefore be interesting to see how many people are turned away from this WOL over the coming years because they thought that they could eat what they liked, only to discover that they really couldn't do so. I therefore wouldn't be surprised if a lot of stories like that then came to the public attention during the coming years.

I expect though that whilst I suss out how I am going to reduce my carb intake over time, I will probably continue to expect a bumpy ride on the meantime as regards to my weight and blood pressure results. To me, that is fine. In the meantime, my main focus will be in trying to curb the recent weight gains over the last couple of weeks.

I know that this has only been at the rate of a pound per week, but that is still something which adds up to a significant amount over time, and which still needs to be curb. This morning, I can report that my weight was 72.8kg which is 2kg down from yesterday, but that is only because of my big 36 hour fast and even that figure still represents a weight gain of nearly a pound from the same time last week (I was 72.5kg then after a similar fast).

The rest of this week will then be all about trying to claw that weekly weight gain and hopefully, turn that into an overall weight loss by next Monday morning. In order to try and achieve that, I will be having my first ever 16/8 day tomorrow, followed by the same thing on Friday with a normal fasting day sandwiched in between on Thursday.

Sorry that you've not had good results from stopping your BP tabs, John. I'm no medic but I expect your high BP isn't related to your weight - as yours and your waist size clearly tell us that you are not huge. I think it is possibly the people who's higher BP IS related to their weight that have more luck when they lose.

For the record, I stopped eating "white carbs" overnight, back in July. I'd previously been a "carbo-holic" - I was doing Slimming World's plan and gorging myself on their Green days (eating unlimited carbs, limiting protein) but a chance remark on Minimins diet forum made me question the wisdom of my choice. All they said was "I don't eat carbs as they make me bloated and sluggish) I'd always had a tummy on me... I assumed it was just my shape, it was part of my classic pear-shaped ample hips and thighs! I had been attributing my sluggishness to being menopausal so for an experiment I gave up white bread, rice, pasta and potatoes. Just for a few days to see how I felt. In less than a week, my stomach was like a washboard (in ratio, I was still 2.5 stones heavier then than I am now!) and I was bouncing off the walls with energy. My night sweats, which had been waking me hourly, were diminishing already. I felt fantastic and I didn't want to lose that feeling. So initially I swapped to more complex carbs... brown rice, wholemeal bread etc.... didn't like brown rice at ALL, if I'm honest, but valiantly ate it for a couple of weeks with my home-made curry... but did forego the naan bread Then I discovered cauliflower "rice" and I honestly, hand on heart, can say that I now prefer this over brown AND white rice. I can eat my curry and not feel bloated and of course it keeps the cals down. From this I progressed to courgette spaghetti too... lovely stuff. I do still eat tiny wholmeal submarine (27g) rolls from M&S but maybe I'll have one or two once a week with some soup.

I NEVER thought I'd adjust to life without a lot of carbs but I have. And more to the point, I don't feel like I am losing out on anything. Feeling so much better far outweighs the comfort of eating them.

BUT... we are all different and what works for me, won't work for everyone.

I think it is very admirable that you are so focussed on your body to try to work out what you can and can't eat and the inner workings. It must be frustrating watching other people losing weight when you seem to be stuck. Maybe just focus on thinking about the health implications that fasting must surely be giving you and see any weight loss as a bonus?

Since I've been 5:2'ing... and subsequently hit target a couple of weeks ago, I have also become a lot more interested in the science of nutrition... although I don't consider myself that much of a scholar so some of Carol's links tie my poor brain up in knots... but I do still try to read and grasp their concepts.

Keep going and stay positive .....

[carorees]

I don't think you should be daunted by the prospectof cutting carbs because you may not need to cut them by much. I would suggest you try to cut out 50g from your daily carb intake and see if that has an effect.

If you look at the list below, you could pick some items you could cut out, e.g., one less slice of bread + 2 less potatoes + one less glass of fruit juice would cut out 50g.

Here's the list of foods containing 50g carbs:

CEREAL Wheat biscuit cereal (e.g. Weet Bix) 60g (5 biscuits)
'Light' breakfast cereal (e.g. Cornflakes) 60 g (2 cups)
Muesli' flake breakfast cereal 65 g (1-1.5 cups)
Toasted muesli 90 g (1 cup)
Porridge - made with milk 350 g (1.3 cups)
Porridge - made with water 550 g (2.5 cups)
Rolled oats 90 g (1 cup)
Bread 100 g (4 slices white or 3 thick wholegrain)
Bread rolls 110 g (1 large or 2 medium)
Pita and lebanese bread 100 g (2 pita)
Chapati 150 g (2.5)
English muffin 120 g (2 full muffins)
Crumpet 2.5
Muesli bar 2.5
Rice cakes 6 thick or 10 thin
Crispbreads and dry biscuits 6 large or 15 small
Fruit filled biscuits 5
Plain sweet biscuits 8-10
Cream filled/chocolate biscuits 6
Cakestyle muffin 115 g (1 large or 2 medium)
Pancakes 150 g (2 medium)
Scones 125 g (3 medium)
Iced fruit bun 105 g (1.5)
Croissant 149 g (1.5 large or 2 medium)
Rice, boiled 180g (1 cup)
Pasta or noodles, boiled 200 g (1.3 cups)
Canned spaghetti 440 g (large can)
FRUIT
Fruit crumble 1 cup
Fruit packed in heavy syrup 280 g (1.3 cups)
Fruit stewed/canned in light syrup 520 g (2 cups)
Fresh fruit salad 500 g (2.5 cups)
Bananas 2 medium-large
Large fruit (mango, pear, grapefruit etc.) 2-3
Medium fruit (orange, apple etc.) 3-4
Small fruit (nectarine, apricot etc.) 12
Grapes 350 g (2 cups)
Melon 1,000 g (6 cups)
Strawberries 1,800 g (12 cups)
Sultanas and raisins 70 g (4 Tbsp)
Dried apricots 115 g (22 halves)
VEGETABLES
Potatoes 350 g (1 very large or 3 medium)
Sweet potato 350 g (2.5 cups)
Corn 300 g (1.2 cups creamed corn or 2 cobs)
Green Beans 1,800 g (14 cups)
Baked beans 440 g (1 large can)
Lentils 400 g (2 cups)
Soy beans and kidney beans 400 g (2 cups)
Tomato puree 1 litre (4 cups)
Pumpkin and peas 700 g (5 cups)
DAIRY PRODUCTS
Milk 1 litre
Flavoured milk 560 ml
Custard 300 g (1.3 cup or half 600 g carton)
'Diet' yoghurt and natural yoghurt 800 g (4 individual tubs)
Flavoured non-fat yoghurt 350 g (2 individual tubs)
Icecream 250 g (10 Tbsp)
Fromage frais 400 g (2 tubs)
Rice pudding/creamed rice 300 g (1.5 cups)
SUGARS and CONFECTIONERY
Sugar 50 g
Jam 3 Tbsp
Syrups 4 Tbsp
Honey 3 Tbsp
Chocolate 80 g
Mars Bar and other 50-60 g bars 1.5 bars
Jubes and jelly babies 60 g
MIXED DISHES
Pizza 200 g (medium -1/4 thick or 1/3 thin)
Hamburgers 1.3 Big Macs
Lasagne 400 g serve
Fried rice 200 g (1.3 cups)
DRINKS
Fruit juice - unsweetened 600 ml
Fruit juice - sweetened 500 ml
Cordial 800 ml
Soft drinks and flavored mineral water 500 ml
Fruit smoothie 250-300 ml

I think that it's just confusing when you don't really know what you should be eating and what you shouldn't especially when you are always getting conflicting advice on that (one example of that is the saturated fat issue because whereas there are a lot of people on this forum who advocate eating more saturated fats, the DASH diet which I have just started to study, seems be saying that I should eat less of those types of fats and more unsaturated fats which then makes it fine to continue with taking my olive oil (looks like, I might have one over those coconut oil lovers on that one after all, tee!! hee!!)). The fact that I am having to make that choice is the big bone of contention that I have with the 5:2 diet because of the fact that this goes against the claim of the 5:2 diet, that you can eat whatever you like. The fact that I am having to make those choices shows that you can't just eat exactly what you like with the 5:2 diet, and that is what is p@$sing me off about the whole thing (I apologize for coming very close to swearing on this forum, but that whole issue has really angered me).

Nevertheless, I have just eaten a small handful of nuts for an afternoon snack instead of the chocolate and other crap that I would eaten before, and that is even on the day after my big 36 hour fast where I would normally be struggling to avoid overcompensating for that big fast. Whereas I did have a good breakfast at the supermarket cafe this morning, that wasn't the Full Scottish Breakfast that I had last week and since I also kept away from that dessert at lunchtime (thereby reducing the carbs even further), the overall calorie count for today is running at less than what it was last week. That deficit will grow even further tonight when I will be having my evening meal with mushrooms instead of potatoes, and I won't be having a dessert with my evening meal (that will be saved for a special treat at the weekend when it will also be my birthday). Instead of that usual dessert, I might just have a cup of soup instead and save on the carbs even more as a result.

There are also still the biscuits to be cut out, but I'm not a person who likes to waste anything and so, those biscuits will be cut out once I have no more of them left in the house (fortunately, I don't have too many of those left). That should make tomorrow's daily weigh-in quite an interesting one. I do expect an increase from today because the weight always goes up on the first feeding day after a fast as the body replenishes its water content. However, there shouldn't be as big a weight gain this time as what there was at the same time last week.

That means that although my weight was 72.8kg this morning, I will happy enough to settle for a weight of between 73kg and 74kg at tomorrow morning's daily weigh-in. I can also add that I don't actually feel all that hungry today after that big fast yesterday, despite the fact that I have eaten fewer calories today than what I did a week ago at this time. That in turn should be good news for tomorrow's first ever attempt at 16/8, and the challenges that lie ahead during the rest of this week.