The FastDay Forum

Personally I think there definitely is a fine line but I do believe the longer you do this the less likely you are to binge on feast days. You may over eat a bit but I think a huge binge becomes the exception and doesn't happen as much as it use to. Yesterday arvo I felt like I was picking all afternoon and started to panic as I had hit a three year low in weight loss that morning and desperately didn't want to see the scales go up today. When I actually sat down and worked out my calories before dinner I was pleasantly surprised that I was still within my normal daily allowance so my perceptions of over eating have definitely changed

I too can't have certain foods in the house as they are big flashing red lights and I know I will succumb in a weak moment. I am better buying one of something when I am out and still having it so I don't feel deprived than having it stocked in the cupboard.

I am trying to adopt the "careful day" strategy that someone mentioned on this forum for the day after a fast day as I was sick of undoing the good work from the fast day. This seems to be working well too

As I understand it, fructose does not increase insulin levels at all, which is why at one time fructose was recommended as a sweetener for diabetics (these days this is no longer recommended).

Excess glucose will result in insulin being produced, but insulin acts as a hunger-suppressant. In addition, insulin stimulates the production of leptin, which further suppresses hunger. So, there is a negative feedback loop here that controls your appetite and helps prevent you from overeating.

In the case of fructose, however, it goes directly to the liver and gets metabolised straight into fatty acids. These fatty acids contribute to insulin resistance and leptin resistance, which means our body no longer gets a clear signal when to stop eating. Therefore, when the body absorbs large quantities of fructose, there is a tendency to overeat.

Since "sugar" as we commonly know it is made up of equal parts glucose and fructose, it is desirable to keep consumption low. This will help reduce insulin and leptin resistance, and allow your body to know when it has eaten enough.

Incidently, with lower insulin resistance your body will not need produce as much insulin, so if your fasting insulin levels are measuring high, this is an indication of insulin resistance.

I must admit that I've only just started to learn about these topics after my doctor told me I have fatty liver and signs of insulin resistance (not yet developed into pre-diabetes thank goodness!). Hopefully some of the biochem gurus will step in with more information if my understanding is not correct

Yep..i think it says in the 5:2 book not to try IF if you are prone to anorexia / bulimia
Personally ive overeaten several times since starting IF but i find i get sick and nauseous long before overeating can turn into a binge..my tummy cant cope any more
I still have to make sure i dont have unnecessary goodies in stock tho -
Nothing to do with me,but biscuits start shouting to me from the cupboards and cake waves to me from the fridge..so i find it best to leave them on the supermarket shelf where i can walk straight past them and ignore their pleas to come home with me

my understanding is that increases in insulin cause blood sugar to go down and this makes you hungry. Insulin also encourages fat storage. I've never heard of insulin being an appetite suppressant. (though this may be a difference between normal insulin levels and heightened insulin levels caused by high blood glucose)

Your explanation above leaves out ghrelin, the "hunger" hormone, that evidently skyrockets (after initially lowering) after eating carbs.

I should be more of an expert in the biochemistry of metabolism than I am given my PhD in biochemistry, but I study a different area, and for some reason have trouble getting my head around metabolism stuff.

I think it is well known that insulin suppresses appetite. For example, in the abstract from the following paper on the effects of insulin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1693 ... inalpos=66

it says:
"Among its many well-known functions, insulin is also a potent anorexigenic hormone…"

(I had to look up "anorexigenic" but it means "causing loss of appetite".)

Of course you are right that insulin will cause your blood sugar levels to drop (eg. by encouraging fat storage), and if the blood sugar gets too low, your pancreas will produce glucagon that in turn stimulates production of the ghrelin "hunger hormone" that makes you hungry again.

So, it seems to me if the "anorexigenic" effects of insulin/leptin have been blunted, you are more likely to overeat and cause large spikes in your insulin, with a subsequent drop in blood sugar, leading into another "binging cycle".

So, I guess this is all the more reason to avoid eating too many sugary things. But then, I think you said that already, didn't you

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, this metabolism stuff certainly is tricky to get your head around.

[Debs]

I don't know about insulin etc., but I'm currently in the Qantas Business Lounge on the way to Perth and I am amazed at how much I can't eat compared to what I used to when faced with free food!!! Only one small plate of pasta and , well ok, two small brownies, but that's all!! I used to be a contender!!

[janeg]

off topic !
good luck debs. positive vibes winging their way to you. Good luck
and breathe!

After almost two years I am actually finding the opposite to be true. Now, if I do overindulge on the weekend, my body wants, almost craves the fast. If it is a Monday holiday and I am not fasting my mind and body struggle with it and I either feel poorly or literally get sick just from too many days in a row of indulgence or too many carbs or whatever...

If I do find myself in a binge I think it is usually more about hormones or stress than fasting.

After almost two years I am actually finding the opposite to be true. Now, if I do overindulge on the weekend, my body wants, almost craves the fast. If it is a Monday holiday and I am not fasting my mind and body struggle with it and I either feel poorly or literally get sick just from too many days in a row of indulgence or too many carbs or whatever...

If I do find myself in a binge I think it is usually more about hormones or stress than fasting.

Same here. I have had one one binge in the entire 90 odd days of this WOE.

[carieoates]

I'm no saint or anything but, with a 17 and 12 year old who like crisps, chocolate and cake, we still have a plentiful supply in the house. I will go for the crisps, prob once a fortnight with a glass of red, . But in my mind they're not mine to eat so I don't. And on a non fast day, I will eat a biscuit or a bit of chocolate if I feel like it.

I have to say, since starting this WOE I think developed a compulsive overeating habit- worse than it was before. No matter how much I try to control it I am always eating when I'm not hungry, overeating where I feel uncomfortable and the need to keep eating more. It's actually worrying me

I'm sure I read somewhere (Krista Varady?) the percentage of people who eat more than 110% on their non-fast days--something like 10%, if my memory serves (which more and more it doesn't). I wonder if some of you fall in that group. I'm not sure if it's understood at all why some people do seem to overeat on nonfast days. Perhaps an imbalance between insulin, leptin, and ghrelin.

Mind you, it might just feel like you are overeating on non-fast days.

All interesting replies.
I wasn't on a fast day yesterday and I consumed around 1300 cals, which included some dried fruit last night. It could easily have been more.
Seems to coincide with the nights I can't sleep - though I did go 'off' at around 1am and slept well for 6 hours.

Ehm.., I get the impression of guilt trips involved regarding eating large amounts of food here.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing regarding "binge eating" here, are you referring to compulsively eating absurd or dangerous amounts until you're about to throw up? I guess that would be a problem, yes. Otherwise, no.

I can't see why there should be some kind of ideal behaviour where you're supposed to eat consistently during the feed days of the week.

Weekends are for pleasure, and having a lot of food and drink is a part of this. Not a problem as long as you're in control and monitor your weight consistently. If you eat a lot one day, you compensate another day. What's the problem?

I also don't understand the term "starving" in this context either, you're either hungry or not, the actual sensation of hunger can not increase or decrease at all, there's nothing dramatic about it. Starvation is a life threating situation where the body lacks vital nutrients, hardly the case when you're without food for a day or two.

Perhaps there's a problem if you have a history of anorexia/bulimia, otherwise I see no need to worry about fine lines as long as you're in control of your weight, maybe I'm missing something.

Prior to starting this WOE I binged (not to the state of throwing up) probably most days - I would fight the desire to stuff my face and I'd do ok until early evening and then there was no chance of controlling myself. Since starting this however I don't and have had no real urge to do so - that's what I love about it; it seems to have 'reset' my previously disordered way of eating. I still like sweet things but a taste is enough and I know when to stop (and the desire to eat sweet things and especially carbs has reduced). I can't speak for everyone here, obviously, but that's just me - I eat more like a 'normal' person than ever before. Maybe it also helps that I'm in the best relationship I've ever had and therefore don't need the emotional crutch of bread etc And that really isn't meant to sound smug.