The FastDay Forum

[Betsysgr8]

@Jools7 you might be interested in this article written by Zoe Harcombe http://healthinsightuk.org/2013/10/30/w ... t-is-daft/ , actually, the whole site is interesting and the comments and questions that follow the articles are just as thought provoking.

[carorees]

I'm not sure if there have been any recent trials because we all 'knew' that saturated fat was bad, no-one would get approval to do a RCT in which patients were told to eat saturated fat! So the new understanding has come from meta-analyses and better analysis of association studies. There is this study though in which patients with documented atherosclerosis ate high levels of saturated fat and no starch: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14601690

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To determine whether a diet of high saturated fat and avoidance of starch (HSF-SA) results in weight loss without adverse effects on serum lipids in obese nondiabetic patients.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Twenty-three patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease participated in a prospective 6-week trial at the Christiana Care Medical Center in Newark, Del, between August 2000 and September 2001. All patients were obese (mean +/- SD body mass index [BMI], 39.0+/-7.3 kg/m2) and had been treated with statins before entry in the trial. Fifteen obese patients with polycystic ovary syndrome (BMI, 36.1+/-9.7 kg/m2) and 8 obese patients with reactive hypoglycemia (BMI, 46.8+/-10 kg/m2) were monitored during an HSF-SA diet for 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, between 1997 and 2000.
RESULTS:
In patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, mean +/- SD total body weight (TBW) decreased 5.2%+/-2.5% (P<.001) as did body fat percentage (P=.02). Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopic analysis of lipids showed decreases in total triglycerides (P<.001), very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) triglycerides (P<.001), VLDL size (P<.001), large VLDL concentration (P<.001), and medium VLDL concentration (P<.001). High-density lipoprotein (HDL) and LDL concentrations were unchanged, but HDL size (P=.01) and LDL size (P=.02) increased. Patients with polycystic ovary syndrome lost 14.3%+/-20.3% of TBW (P=.008) and patients with reactive hypoglycemia lost 19.9%+/-8.7% of TBW (P<.001) at 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, without adverse effects on serum lipids.
CONCLUSION:
An HSF-SA diet results in weight loss after 6 weeks without adverse effects on serum lipid levels verified by nuclear magnetic resonance, and further weight loss with a lipid-neutral effect may persist for up to 52 weeks.

Then you might like to look at this video by Peter Attia examining the lack of evidence for saturated fat being unhealthy: http://vimeo.com/45485034

I didn't either!

I'm not sure if there have been any recent trials because we all 'knew' that saturated fat was bad, no-one would get approval to do a RCT in which patients were told to eat saturated fat! So the new understanding has come from meta-analyses and better analysis of association studies. There is this study though in which patients with documented atherosclerosis ate high levels of saturated fat and no starch: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14601690

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To determine whether a diet of high saturated fat and avoidance of starch (HSF-SA) results in weight loss without adverse effects on serum lipids in obese nondiabetic patients.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Twenty-three patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease participated in a prospective 6-week trial at the Christiana Care Medical Center in Newark, Del, between August 2000 and September 2001. All patients were obese (mean +/- SD body mass index [BMI], 39.0+/-7.3 kg/m2) and had been treated with statins before entry in the trial. Fifteen obese patients with polycystic ovary syndrome (BMI, 36.1+/-9.7 kg/m2) and 8 obese patients with reactive hypoglycemia (BMI, 46.8+/-10 kg/m2) were monitored during an HSF-SA diet for 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, between 1997 and 2000.
RESULTS:
In patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, mean +/- SD total body weight (TBW) decreased 5.2%+/-2.5% (P<.001) as did body fat percentage (P=.02). Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopic analysis of lipids showed decreases in total triglycerides (P<.001), very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) triglycerides (P<.001), VLDL size (P<.001), large VLDL concentration (P<.001), and medium VLDL concentration (P<.001). High-density lipoprotein (HDL) and LDL concentrations were unchanged, but HDL size (P=.01) and LDL size (P=.02) increased. Patients with polycystic ovary syndrome lost 14.3%+/-20.3% of TBW (P=.008) and patients with reactive hypoglycemia lost 19.9%+/-8.7% of TBW (P<.001) at 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, without adverse effects on serum lipids.
CONCLUSION:
An HSF-SA diet results in weight loss after 6 weeks without adverse effects on serum lipid levels verified by nuclear magnetic resonance, and further weight loss with a lipid-neutral effect may persist for up to 52 weeks.

Then you might like to look at this video by Peter Attia examining the lack of evidence for saturated fat being unhealthy: http://vimeo.com/45485034

So, anyone got a recipe for Low Carb Lardy Cake?

1 pound ground beef
1 pound ground pork
spice to taste
drizzle of slightly sweet butter on top
(skip the bread crumb filler)

There are several threads on this site about low carb eating, eating protein on diet days so you won't be so hungry, eating complex carbs instead of refined, even coconut oil. But this is the first thread I remember that takes on saturated fat head on.

The scientific information posted here so far (both historical and current) clearly frames the issue and anyone really interested should review it.

We are at a time in the discussion where everyone has been taught that the world is flat, and there are now radicals out there saying no, it is round. A lot of people won't believe it, but I think they will come around in time. The actual science will, I think, support it and the unsupported opinion will lose out.

[janeg]

I haven't read through this thread yet, but what has come to mind is statins.
Is this going to have an effect on the bandwagon for prescribing statins I wonder.
I'll read the whole thread later properly and see if this is relevant. Just don't want to those that thought...

Lots of statin info about, Malcolm Kendrick and Anthony Colpo, summary on HealthInsight.co.UK as well. Problem is that statins are now out of patent so the big companies have their new ranges of anti-cholesterol/BP lowering drugs waiting in the wings, some specifically addressed at avoiding the (previously suppressed) side effects of the statins! General message seems to be don't accept statins if you have not had a heart attack, or are female, as they have no benefit but may do harm...

[carorees]

I'm just popping in to remind people that when we talk about enjoying saturated fat, at the same time it is important to control carbohydrate and protein intake. High saturated fat in the context of a high carbohydrate diet does worsen cardiovascular risk. Also, if you cut out carbs you should not compensate by increasing protein intake as high protein intake raises cancer risk.

Dr M discussed this with various people while he was investigating fasting and established that to lower IGF1 (a marker for cancer risk) you need to not only reduce your calorie intake (we're doing this by fasting) but also keep protein levels down. Currently it seems that keeping protein down to under 0.8g per kg body weight (i.e., if you weigh 70kg you should keep your average protein intake down to under 56g per day) is needed to keep IGF1 levels down.

I think that's the issue, you say high fat to people and they think doughnuts or crisps maybe.

My idea of high fat is now pretty limited, ie butter, cream, coconut oil not pasty goods. These are fairly self-limiting in nature, whereas stick them in a cake or trifle and you can eat lots!

[Betsysgr8]

Don't forget avocado for high-fat, really love to have half an avocado or a big dollop of guacamole with my eggs on non-fast days. Also, a portion of walnuts/almonds/sunflower seeds at lunch or sprinkled on a salad.

I had indeed forgotten my avocadoes, yep, with eggs and as guacamole on a fairly frequent basis. They're also good apparently as they don't have lots of pesticide residue.

I'm just popping in to remind people that when we talk about enjoying saturated fat, at the same time it is important to control carbohydrate and protein intake. High saturated fat in the context of a high carbohydrate diet does worsen cardiovascular risk. Also, if you cut out carbs you should not compensate by increasing protein intake as high protein intake raises cancer risk.

Dr M discussed this with various people while he was investigating fasting and established that to lower IGF1 (a marker for cancer risk) you need to not only reduce your calorie intake (we're doing this by fasting) but also keep protein levels down. Currently it seems that keeping protein down to under 0.8g per kg body weight (i.e., if you weigh 70kg you should keep your average protein intake down to under 56g per day) is needed to keep IGF1 levels down.

Thank you carorees! This highlights the debate in a way.

There are only three types of food (not counting alcohol)- carbs, protein and fat. We've known for years that too much protein is not good, so it remains 'in the middle' of the see saw. For years, the major weight has been on the carb side. Science has now shown that may be unhealthy. So now the debate is shifting to fats, and the types of fats that should be consumed. Current science says saturated fats are good, not only because the body can process them easily but also because they contain high levels of essential nutrients. It will be interesting to see where future studies come down on the balance of fats in the diet.

On the other hand, common sense (and thousands of years of successful survival) would indicate eating fat from animals can be a successful, healthy and non-weight gain way of eating.

Currently it seems that keeping protein down to under 0.8g per kg body weight (i.e., if you weigh 70kg you should keep your average protein intake down to under 56g per day) is needed to keep IGF1 levels down.

I've just looked back on MFP at what I thought was a pretty perfect day food-wise and my protein was 96g At my weight of 65kg, with the above calc, it should have been 52g. This is going to take some thinking about, as I didn't think I'd overdone the protein by much. 52g of protein is only 4 eggs, and I'm often having 3 a day, as well as meat, nuts and cheese.

I tried to post yesterday but the Forum wouldn’t let me in.

Here's a link worth adding to the debate.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... luten.aspx

As well as fat and protein being important Dr Perimutter thinks carbs are bad for you. A friend of mine, borderline diabetic, attended a workshop run by the local hospital, amongst the advice was these words, 'you should have carbs with every meal'.

Research doesn't always help us.

Hi:

Minumonline, You have highlighted the issue for me personally. I am unable to comment on the level of protein that should be eaten, but when reached, you then have to decide 'what else to eat'. Given our decades of training, it is hard to say broccoli prepared in butter. As I mentioned in another post, I really have no idea at this time how to increase my fat intake to the current recommended levels (but I do know the 'lion' example in the video is not an option for me). Having followed Atkins for years, however, I do know if you can come up with that kind of diet you won't eat very much or very often.

Anyone know of a high fat cook book?